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Conroe: Yes
Cleveland: Yes
Kingwood: Yes
Huntsville: Yes
Kaufman: No
Corsicana: No
Madisonville: No
Livingston: Yes
Vidor: Yes
Jasper: Yes
I've never heard an argument against Jasper being East Texas. Vidor and the Houston area certainly have their own distinct identities but that shouldn't disclude them from the region as a whole. Southeast Texas is a subregion of East Texas, just like Deep East Texas and Northeast Texas/Arklatex.
ET is large enough to be its own state, and no state that large is going to be monolithic. So IMO I think it's best defined as anything located in the much wetter parts of Texas, in or near the Piney Woods, with significant cultural ties to Louisiana. That's everything from Texarkana to Houston.
While this is all subjective, this stance is pretty uncommon (in regards to the paragraphs, not the answer to the top).
Southeast Texas may or May not be described as a subregion of East Texas but Houston is almost never included in this region. Usually, Southeast Texas is used synonymously with the Beaumont-Port Arthur region and maaaaybe as far as Winnie. But almost always discludes Houston.
Considering Houston is a 7+ million metro region, were it part of East Texas, it would easily be the heart of East Texas. But it’s not. The heart of East Texas is undoubtedly the Tyler/Longview area.
But again, all subjective so nothing to prove wrong.
While this is all subjective, this stance is pretty uncommon (in regards to the paragraphs, not the answer to the top).
Southeast Texas may or May not be described as a subregion of East Texas but Houston is almost never included in this region. Usually, Southeast Texas is used synonymously with the Beaumont-Port Arthur region and maaaaybe as far as Winnie. But almost always discludes Houston.
Considering Houston is a 7+ million metro region, were it part of East Texas, it would easily be the heart of East Texas. But it’s not. The heart of East Texas is undoubtedly the Tyler/Longview area.
But again, all subjective so nothing to prove wrong.
And it's not that I don't understand why. Houston over time has morphed into a major, global metropolis whose present day culture doesn't line up well with what is considered quintessential ET in the mind of most Texans--but the same is true of Atlanta with Georgia or Miami with Florida, so is it really odd to think that if ET were in fact an actual state that Houston would be its major metro? I just think that despite the city having developed its own identity, the cultural and geographical ET roots are still present.
Look at it this way: two of the main things that distinguish Houston from the other big cities in Texas are its trees and its prevalence of Black culture; those same two things distinguish East Texas from the state as a whole. The Hispanic influence is also mostly more recent than in other parts of the state.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
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Kaufman: No
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence
Conroe: Yes
Cleveland: Yes
Kingwood: Yes
Huntsville: Yes
Corsicana: No
Madisonville: No
Livingston: Yes
Vidor: Yes
Jasper: Yes
I've never heard an argument against Jasper being East Texas. Vidor and the Houston area certainly have their own distinct identities but that shouldn't disclude them from the region as a whole. Southeast Texas is a subregion of East Texas, just like Deep East Texas and Northeast Texas/Arklatex.
ET is large enough to be its own state, and no state that large is going to be monolithic. So IMO I think it's best defined as anything located in the much wetter parts of Texas, in or near the Piney Woods, with significant cultural ties to Louisiana. That's everything from Texarkana to Houston.
Louisiana influence is certainly strong in Golden Triangle. Not much once one gets a bit north of I-10. I see Houston much like I see Beaumont/Port Arthur as far a regional classification and that would be as Coastal Texas. All are oceanic port cities. Roughly I can't consider any areas south of I-10 as East Texas. I've lived in them all and presently live in East Texas albeit the southern portion. Also Winnie is very much ties to Beaumont/Pt Arthur.
Characteristics for East Texas must include an active timber industry. And yes it generally has a slightly higher percentage of blacks than areas west of I-45. A couple of outliers would be Temple/Killeen (21%) and Waco (15%).
Most metro areas, even micro-metro areas have <10% black population west of I-45 but not that much higher east of that interstate. Old South areas of true East Texas are not near the concentration that may have been intimated here. Examples: Lufkin 15%, Nac 17%, Longview 18%, Tyler 15%. This is all classic East Texas. All of East Texas <20%.
Now comparing Houston and the DFW areas . . . essentially the same at 17% vs 16% respectively. Golden Triangle is 25% as is Texarkana. Yet, cross the Sabine River into the traditional Old South and percentages go way up generally >30% and even approaching 50% in some areas.
It is hardly a true distinguishing characteristic IMO.
Along with the timber industry one must consider other fauna to determine East Texas with the most notable the consistent size of trees (bigger trees) and just the vastness of green growth (more lush). I think there is also a certain personality associated with East Texas populations that could be described as "country" or even "redneck". (I don't consider "redneck" as derogatory although it is quite often used by the haughty as an insult). Much of the West Texas oil field personnel originated out of East Texas.
An area almost has to be a part of the Pineywoods IMO to be considered East Texas. That puts Madisonville on the border and is only 25-30 miles or so from Huntsville.
Vidor ... not south Vidor due to be on the true coastal plain and subject to hurricane storm surge. Not East Texas. North Vidor qualifies due to pine plantation plantings. I am considering areas outside the city limit but still considered "Vidor".
Jasper is classic E. Tx as is Livingston. Both have large timber processing plants within 10 miles. Cleveland pretty much is criteria complete.
Kaufman and Corsicana fail to meet East Tx criteria despite being on or east of I-45. Kingwood (and even The Woodlands) are kinda meh due to being Houston metro. Too much influence from implants.
And it's not that I don't understand why. Houston over time has morphed into a major, global metropolis whose present day culture doesn't line up well with what is considered quintessential ET in the mind of most Texans--but the same is true of Atlanta with Georgia or Miami with Florida, so is it really odd to think that if ET were in fact an actual state that Houston would be its major metro? I just think that despite the city having developed its own identity, the cultural and geographical ET roots are still present.
In these examples that you mentioned, these cities are treated their own region within the state just how Houston is in Texas. The reason Dallas is treated as North Texas and Houston isn't treated as East Texas is for (as you pointed out), East Texas is huge, North Texas isn't. Geographically, Lufkin is much more East while Houston is more like Eastern South Texas (geographically, not topographically or culturally).
And I honestly probably don't really even agree with Houston being solidly East Texas even if it didn't develop. While Northeast Houston shares many topographical similarities to East Texas, West Houston is a different story. By the time you get to Katy, you reach that solid treeless plain similar to Bastrop. Katy before Houston's expansion and Conroe seem like entirely different places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence
Look at it this way: two of the main things that distinguish Houston from the other big cities in Texas are its trees and its prevalence of Black culture; those same two things distinguish East Texas from the state as a whole. The Hispanic influence is also mostly more recent than in other parts of the state.
Those are only two faces of Houston which is much more multi faced. Dallas has a solid underrated black culture, but I wouldn't include it within East Texas either. And both black cultures are driven by East Texas primarily (in fact, Dallas arguably even more than Houston). I would honestly say that culturally, Houston is actually a perfect blend of East and South Texas plus the international cosmopolitan aspect you mention from what it developed into. There's solid influences of both regions.
On another note, supposing Southeast Texas consists of Beaumont-Port Arthur-Orange, I'm not sure I would group it with the rest of East Texas but that's just me.
To address something that I'm not sure if its been mentioned, Texas is oddly shaped. That's why these regions aren't as obviously drawn. The way California is shaped, there's only north, south, and central. Florida, there's only south, central, and panhandle.
Louisiana influence is certainly strong in Golden Triangle. Not much once one gets a bit north of I-10. I see Houston much like I see Beaumont/Port Arthur as far a regional classification and that would be as Coastal Texas. All are oceanic port cities. Roughly I can't consider any areas south of I-10 as East Texas. I've lived in them all and presently live in East Texas albeit the southern portion. Also Winnie is very much ties to Beaumont/Pt Arthur.
Sounds like you're talking specifically about South Louisiana, Cajun/Creole culture for the Golden Triangle, but I'm referring to LA as a whole.
Quote:
Characteristics for East Texas must include an active timber industry. And yes it generally has a slightly higher percentage of blacks than areas west of I-45. A couple of outliers would be Temple/Killeen (21%) and Waco (15%).
Most metro areas, even micro-metro areas have <10% black population west of I-45 but not that much higher east of that interstate. Old South areas of true East Texas are not near the concentration that may have been intimated here. Examples: Lufkin 15%, Nac 17%, Longview 18%, Tyler 15%. This is all classic East Texas. All of East Texas <20%.
Now comparing Houston and the DFW areas . . . essentially the same at 17% vs 16% respectively. Golden Triangle is 25% as is Texarkana. Yet, cross the Sabine River into the traditional Old South and percentages go way up generally >30% and even approaching 50% in some areas.
It is hardly a true distinguishing characteristic IMO.
Because you're looking at present day stats which include the massive influx of Hispanics over the past few decades. But one need only to go back to the 1990 census when Blacks were still the largest minority group in the city of Houston (by far in East Texas), compared to Austin or San Antonio where the Black population has been historically much smaller. So sure, in 2022 the differences are almost subtle but it was far more pronounced in the past.
Quote:
Along with the timber industry one must consider other fauna to determine East Texas with the most notable the consistent size of trees (bigger trees) and just the vastness of green growth (more lush). I think there is also a certain personality associated with East Texas populations that could be described as "country" or even "redneck". (I don't consider "redneck" as derogatory although it is quite often used by the haughty as an insult). Much of the West Texas oil field personnel originated out of East Texas.
An area almost has to be a part of the Pineywoods IMO to be considered East Texas. That puts Madisonville on the border and is only 25-30 miles or so from Huntsville.
Vidor ... not south Vidor due to be on the true coastal plain and subject to hurricane storm surge. Not East Texas. North Vidor qualifies due to pine plantation plantings. I am considering areas outside the city limit but still considered "Vidor".
Jasper is classic E. Tx as is Livingston. Both have large timber processing plants within 10 miles. Cleveland pretty much is criteria complete.
Kaufman and Corsicana fail to meet East Tx criteria despite being on or east of I-45. Kingwood (and even The Woodlands) are kinda meh due to being Houston metro. Too much influence from implants.
I agree and this is pretty much what I said in my first post, so any definition that doesn't include Houston or the Golden Triangle is just splitting hairs, as both of these places are connected to the pine belt.
Whether you're on I-10 coming out of San Antonio, or 45 out of Dallas, you can literally see the drastic change in scenery that happens the closer you get to Houston. That's when you're in "East Texas" and it really just doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
Because you're looking at present day stats which include the massive influx of Hispanics over the past few decades. But one need only to go back to the 1990 census when Blacks were still the largest minority group in the city of Houston (by far in East Texas), compared to Austin or San Antonio where the Black population has been historically much smaller. So sure, in 2022 the differences are almost subtle but it was far more pronounced in the past.
It’s been 32 years since 1990 and it’s been over a century since the Hispanic migration to Houston began. To disregard it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It doesn’t make sense to disregard the black population, but it doesn’t make sense to disregard the Hispanic population either. Hispanics are currently a larger group in Houston than African Americans period.
In these examples that you mentioned, these cities are treated their own region within the state just how Houston is in Texas. The reason Dallas is treated as North Texas and Houston isn't treated as East Texas is for (as you pointed out), East Texas is huge, North Texas isn't. Geographically, Lufkin is much more East while Houston is more like Eastern South Texas (geographically, not topographically or culturally).
Right but what's been suggested is that simply being a large city or even subregion unto itself means it couldn't still be East Texas, and I disagree with that.
Quote:
And I honestly probably don't really even agree with Houston being solidly East Texas even if it didn't develop. While Northeast Houston shares many topographical similarities to East Texas, West Houston is a different story. By the time you get to Katy, you reach that solid treeless plain similar to Bastrop. Katy before Houston's expansion and Conroe seem like entirely different places.
Katy is obviously pushing the limits being a far flung suburb. For the record I never said I'm including the entire Houston metropolitan area and I'm not saying that Houston is surrounded by East Texas. If anything, it's a gateway if you're coming from the south or west.
Quote:
Those are only two faces of Houston which is much more multi faced. Dallas has a solid underrated black culture, but I wouldn't include it within East Texas either. And both black cultures are driven by East Texas primarily (in fact, Dallas arguably even more than Houston). I would honestly say that culturally, Houston is actually a perfect blend of East and South Texas plus the international cosmopolitan aspect you mention from what it developed into. There's solid influences of both regions.
Two important faces that Houston and East Texas do not share with the vast majority of the state.
As far as Houston being South Texas: again, people are placing too much emphasis on Houston's Hispanic population that was much smaller just a few decades ago. It is not the same Tex-Mex culture that you have in San Antonio and environs. Like East Texas, Houston was historically a very Black & White town.
It’s been 32 years since 1990 and it’s been over a century since the Hispanic migration to Houston began. To disregard it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It doesn’t make sense to disregard the black population, but it doesn’t make sense to disregard the Hispanic population either. Hispanics are currently a larger group in Houston than African Americans period.
Not disregarding it. Just pointing out how it developed differently in the eastern part of the state.
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