Where does East Texas start? (Houston, Tyler: design, suburbs, rated)

[Redlionjr]

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Right but what's been suggested is that simply being a large city or even subregion unto itself means it couldn't still be East Texas, and I disagree with that.

Katy is obviously pushing the limits being a far flung suburb. For the record I never said I'm including the entire Houston metropolitan area and I'm not saying that Houston is surrounded by East Texas. If anything, it's a gateway if you're coming from the south or west.

Two important faces that Houston and East Texas do not share with the vast majority of the state.

As far as Houston being South Texas: again, people are placing too much emphasis on Houston's Hispanic population that was much smaller just a few decades ago. It is not the same Tex-Mex culture that you have in San Antonio and environs. Like East Texas, Houston was historically a very Black & White town.

There's some defining characteristics that make East Texas East Texas. Obviously the biggest trait is that it's the region most like the Deep South compared to the rest of the state. I don't think you can use the Black and White town trait because a lot of cities in Texas during that same time period were Black and White towns. DFW was primarily a Black and White town. Several towns in Central Texas were Black and White and I'm not talking HILL Country where a lot of German immigrants settled and influenced the culture of that area. I'm talking the areas surrounding Waco.

Also there were stretches of freedmen towns along the Brazos south of Harris county and west of it going towards Austin. Matter fact these areas had some of the biggest populations of enslaved people and plantations during slavery in the state. I don't think areas like Hempstead/ Brookshire/ Richmond would be considered East Texas even though they have all the markings of the old Southern South.

Now me being a born and raised East Texan (80's baby-90's kid) I can't tell you when East Texas started to call itself EAST TEXAS. I just know my Grandparents were well aware of the regional term then. I also know living in Houston for over 10 years that people my Grandparents age don't associate Houston with East Texas. My Grandparents were born in the 1910s-1920s.

I think what Houston was initially was a very southern area culturally no different than what is considered East Texas today. But the more Houston developed the more it became completely different than East Texas. I think you're implying it was still culturally East Texas till about the 70's-80's with the influx of Mexican immigrants and later other immigrants making it a international cosmopolitan city we know today.

But I think it happened before that. Because Houston had influences that the rest of East Texas didn't have. For example German immigrants influence on Houston just doesn't exist like that in East Texas. Now Houston isn't like the Hill Country but there's some German influence. Houston also attracted other immigrants and people from other parts of the country during the late 1800s-early 1900's that East Texas didn't attract. So Houston very early became something different. You can say it's roots are similar to East Texas but it has just as many influences from other parts of Texas too that make it essentially it's own thing. Just look at how Houston does their BBQ and the fact a Houston stable served Kolaches and that'll tell you all you need to know about what Houston is and was culturally.

I seriously didn't know Kolaches existed till Longview got it's first Shipley's location in the mid 90's. Also we're not big on brisket like every other part of Texas. Brisket started to become more popular in East Texas in the past decade but it's mostly centered around pork. In Houston I find a lot of BBQ places do a mixture of Hill Country BBQ and East Texas BBQ.

Houston's cultural foundation imo is some East Texas/ Southeast Texas/ Southwest Louisiana/ South Texas/ Hill Country (or the 290 stretch)/ Gulf Coast. It's a melting pot of those things but it's not just primarily East Texas. So if East Texas became it's own state no Houston wouldn't be in that state. The primary city would be Tyler. Houston would be it's own region.

[Redlionjr]

Originally Posted by BobTex

Kaufman: No

Characteristics for East Texas must include an active timber industry. And yes it generally has a slightly higher percentage of blacks than areas west of I-45. A couple of outliers would be Temple/Killeen (21%) and Waco (15%).

Most metro areas, even micro-metro areas have <10% black population west of I-45 but not that much higher east of that interstate. Old South areas of true East Texas are not near the concentration that may have been intimated here. Examples: Lufkin 15%, Nac 17%, Longview 18%, Tyler 15%. This is all classic East Texas. All of East Texas <20%.

Now comparing Houston and the DFW areas . . . essentially the same at 17% vs 16% respectively. Golden Triangle is 25% as is Texarkana. Yet, cross the Sabine River into the traditional Old South and percentages go way up generally >30% and even approaching 50% in some areas.

https://blackdemographics.com/popula...ty-population/

It is hardly a true distinguishing characteristic IMO.

I don't disagree with the statement but I think for those specific cities you mentioned it's better to use city proper percentages than micro metropolitan percentages. East Texas "metropolitan" areas are a lot different than the big cities of Texas. Most Black East Texans are concentrated in the city proper than the rural exurb in between their "major" cities and towns. You're from East Texas so I know you're aware of that. I also want to throw in how the great migration played a big role in East Texas decrease of it's Black populace. Unlike other southern states during that time a significant amount of Black East Texans migrated to cities like DFW/ Houston and even Beamount due to more economic opportunities attached with the oil boom or railroad construction. I would still say the Black cultural aspect in East Texas does have a slight distinction that other regions in the state just don't have. The amount of HBCU's, musical contributions (birthplace of Texas Blues, pre-ragtime, Boogie Woogie) and it's cuisine (Pork centered BBQ) says otherwise.

But I do agree with your overall assessment. There's plenty of towns and cities outside of East Texas that have Black percentages well over the national level. No different than what people think East Texas is. There's towns not to far from Waco or in between Waco and Houston or Austin and Houston that have a significant Black population.

Killeen is a majority Black city but it's an outlier. It's a military city so a lot of Black residents in Killen are from other places even outside of Texas.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Houston's cultural foundation imo is some East Texas/ Southeast Texas/ Southwest Louisiana/ South Texas/ Hill Country (or the 290 stretch)/ Gulf Coast. It's a melting pot of those things but it's not just primarily East Texas. So if East Texas became it's own state no Houston wouldn't be in that state.

Why couldn't it be though? Shreveport and New Orleans are culturally and historically very different cities but both are still Louisiana. What state the size of East Texas is the exact same through and through?

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Houston's cultural foundation imo is some East Texas/ Southeast Texas/ Southwest Louisiana/ South Texas/ Hill Country (or the 290 stretch)/ Gulf Coast. It's a melting pot of those things but it's not just primarily East Texas. So if East Texas became it's own state no Houston wouldn't be in that state. The primary city would be Tyler. Houston would be it's own region.

Correct. And being that Houston is on the edges of there, its strange to categories the region as a whole as simply East Texas.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

Correct. And being that Houston is on the edges of there, its strange to categories the region as a whole as simply East Texas.

Only if you're interested in making it more complicated than it needs to be.

To an outsider not from Texas who isn't familiar with how the state's regions are usually defined, if I told them that Houston was East Texas they would be able to figure out on their own why I would say that.

[rabbit33]

It's important to note that while regions (regions of TX or regions of the US) are often called by geographic names, those are not meant to be taken literally.

The US Midwest includes places like Ohio and Indiana, which are well east of the Mississippi, which is itself well east of the geographic center of the continental US. Nevertheless, when people say "Midwest" they do NOT mean eastern Montana, they mean Michigan, Ohio, etc.

Just because Houston is near the southeast corner of the state does NOT mean that it is within the cultural region called "East Texas".

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Only if you're interested in making it more complicated than it needs to be.

To an outsider not from Texas who isn't familiar with how the state's regions are usually defined, if I told them that Houston was East Texas they would be able to figure out on their own why I would say that.

I don’t think I’m the one that’s making it more complicated. In conversations, East Texas refers to what it is. And that’s all that matters. id say attempting to explain why people are wrong for they is making it more complicated than it is.

[Redlionjr]

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Why couldn't it be though? Shreveport and New Orleans are culturally and historically very different cities but both are still Louisiana. What state the size of East Texas is the exact same through and through?

You lost me on this one. DFW and East Texas are culturally and historically different matter fact there's a less of a difference in those 2 than Shreveport and New Orleans but guess what they're still Texas.

Bottom line, Houston is not a EAST TEXAS city. Houstonians don't even consider themselves East Texans. Most people associate East Texas with the "country" or the "sticks". Even areas that are heavily forested in the metro are not considered the sticks. They're just suburbs with pine trees. Humble, Kingwood, The Woodlands don't feel like East Texas cities. They're too attached to Houston. Conroe IMO is the only "burb" that is remotely close to East Texas and even that's been diluted the more they continue to connect with the other burbs North of Houston.

Ironically Shreveport culturally has more in common with East Texas( at least the area I grew up in)than Houston does. Since Shreveport is the unofficial capital of ArkLaTex (sub-region of East Texas) than Shreveport or Tyler would be the primary city in East Texas.

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Only if you're interested in making it more complicated than it needs to be.

To an outsider not from Texas who isn't familiar with how the state's regions are usually defined, if I told them that Houston was East Texas they would be able to figure out on their own why I would say that.

Houston geographically is in the eastern portion of the state. Culturally it is not East Texas. Geographically DFW is closer to Longview/ Tyler/ Marshall (an area called just East Texas) than Houston is to those 3. Does that make DFW an East Texas city? Matter fact more East Texans live in DFW and if you ask most East Texans they probably prefer DFW to Houston because it's some familiarity there compared to Houston. Southeast Texas would probably prefer Houston of course. Deep East Texas is probably 50/50 honestly.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by rabbit33

It's important to note that while regions (regions of TX or regions of the US) are often called by geographic names, those are not meant to be taken literally.

The US Midwest includes places like Ohio and Indiana, which are well east of the Mississippi, which is itself well east of the geographic center of the continental US. Nevertheless, when people say "Midwest" they do NOT mean eastern Montana, they mean Michigan, Ohio, etc.

Of course, just like North Texas does not include the parts of the state that are furthest north.

[rabbit33]

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Of course, just like North Texas does not include the parts of the state that are furthest north.

Right, but the usual collection of internet literalists will always argue about it.