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all this post tells me is that you're trying to convince us that you know Houston/midtown by describing some common, meaningless freeway interchanges. You have to get off the freeways to get a feel for midtown and Houston altogether.
It is so hard to take you seriously with statements like these. Midtown wasn't even Midtown then. Hell, the idea didn't even come for Midtown until about 1999/2000. You've just proven that you only know Houston from 30-35 years ago. The Houston you know from the 70s and 80s is not the same Houston today. Your knowledge is very outdated and you need to quit while you're ahead. Seriously.
The potential of the grid area existing as a vacuum between downtown Houston and the Texas Medical Center was already known about back during the seventies. The Woodlands was around a little after that time too. I'm old enough to know these things.
Similarly, in Dallas, the area that existed between the residential high rise downtown of Turtle Creek and the office high rise downtown of Dallas was already being realized as a vacuum by Caroline Rose Hunt. Now, indeed, she didn't call it Uptown Dallas during that time, but she saw enough potential to build her landmark development. The developer of Harwood also had this same vision as did the developers of the CityPlace development.
Beginning in the seventies, Houston began constructing cheaper buildings in the suburbs either as corporate campuses or as skyscrapers for its energy business. Indeed, as I remember it, that thirty story skyscraper within Greenway Plaza was the first serious downtown like building built outside of downtown Houston. So, a shortage of land didn't materialize in downtown Houston like it did in downtown Dallas which forced developers in the latter to start looking north of downtown in the area now known as Uptown.
But I read that Caroline sunk 300,000,000 dollars into her development meaning she understood even back then that Uptown Dallas would become upscale. Harwood also was correct in making this determination.
A big difference between Midtown in Houston and Uptown in Dallas is how the latter has developed to become the new downtown of Dallas. As downtown Houston is still the office, residential, and retail capital of what is the inner core of Houston, the area of Uptown Dallas has taken over that designation from downtown Dallas becoming the new downtown of the inner core of Dallas.
So, each area doesn't even compare with the other. Indeed, that doesn't mean that Midtown isn't significant.
1. you said that generfication was a on going process since the 80,s ..no it was not that area did not under go any developments till early 2000.
2. you keep talking about barriers which is stupid for the simple reason once you cross those areas you are in another district all togther... from the east once you go across the highway it becomes third ward. From the west it becomes montrose ( which had nothing to do with midtowns growth) and alittle past the south it becomes the museum district.. Second nothing has hindered midtown growth and in fact mindtown may suffer from a lack of large avaible land lots soon at current development rates. which will mean that the area would have reached it max density or it will have to start to build upward on the smaller lots
Even within the old traditional freeway loop system designating what is a downtown - stop to ponder about how silly that is - one can see different spurts of growth within it that created different centers of the inner core during different eras. In other words, even within the old traditional area called downtown, there are numbers of downtown areas that were built to serve as the new center of the city during a particular era. There are no barriers established between these older and newer centers within downtown and, yet, one can perceive them as unique even without the divisions of indelible concrete elevated freeways built to separate them.
As Uptown Dallas has developed enough to now flow back into downtown Dallas to have an influence on its redevelopment, I think something similar is happening within the traditional freeway loop system making up downtown Houston. Indeed, development towards the east side of downtown, an area which still has ample amounts of land for expansion, has also developed sufficiently to now return to flow into the older parts of downtown to have an effect on redevelopment and gentrification.
You have no idea what i meant when i said fill in the gaps. I was talking about the things he felt was missing from that list.
Development steps up around downtown Dallas with a lot of four to six story buildings stepping up to ten to fifteen story buildings with those in turn stepping up to twenty to twenty-five story buildings and so on. In Houston, poor Pedro the window washer has no choice but to fall off a cliff of skyscrapers unto a swamp of alligators below. Por Examplo:
This is an example of how downtown Houston is very top heavy giving its downtown area a boxy kind of feel to it with shear cliff like edges. Downtown Dallas is more like a nerve center. One can sense that it is a tad more of a crossroads than is downtown Houston. More prowess is expressed in all that lead-in created by clusters and clusters of low rise buildings rising up to a greater and greater climax. It is a nice place to take a date.
Development steps up around downtown Dallas with a lot of four to six story buildings stepping up to ten to fifteen story buildings with those in turn stepping up to twenty to twenty-five story buildings and so on. In Houston, poor Pedro the window washer has no choice but to fall off a cliff of skyscrapers unto a swamp of alligators below. Por Examplo:
This is an example of how downtown Houston is very top heavy giving its downtown area a boxy kind of feel to it with shear cliff like edges. Downtown Dallas is more like a nerve center. One can sense that it is a tad more of a crossroads than is downtown Houston. More prowess is expressed in all that lead-in created by clusters and clusters of low rise buildings rising up to a greater and greater climax. It is a nice place to take a date.
Great shot of both skylines as I can see the Houston one was just taken yesterday. Nice work
Since we are talking about skylines, Boston, Philadelphia and LA also look like nerve centers because there is no cliff fall off on them but in most skyline debates they almost never come out on top. I think most people do like that mountains of buildings look.
Great shot of both skylines as I can see the Houston one was just taken yesterday. Nice work
Since we are talking about skylines, Boston, Philadelphia and LA also look like nerve centers because there is no cliff fall off on them but in most skyline debates they almost never come out on top. I think most people do like that mountains of buildings look.
Though it might seem odd to say, developers in Dallas have never been infatuated with skyscrapers. The Crescent complex built by Caroline Rose Hunt, one of the billionaire daughters of H.L. Hunt, was very short in stature for the time it was built. I think Dallas has moved away from the skyscraper to appreciate the multi-use transit oriented developments more.
Let me tell you the truth. It is when people from Houston are passing through the central core of Dallas that they know themselves to be lying about the significance of their downtown. Surely they have to pull over from being awestruck by the immensity and prowess of it all, metaphorically speaking.
This is why Houstonians act nervous and upset about their skyscrapers whining like little puppies while Dallasites act perplexed and curious as to what in the hell is going on with the inferiority complex.
Even within the old traditional freeway loop system designating what is a downtown - stop to ponder about how silly that is - one can see different spurts of growth within it that created different centers of the inner core during different eras. In other words, even within the old traditional area called downtown, there are numbers of downtown areas that were built to serve as the new center of the city during a particular era. There are no barriers established between these older and newer centers within downtown and, yet, one can perceive them as unique even without the divisions of indelible concrete elevated freeways built to separate them.
As Uptown Dallas has developed enough to now flow back into downtown Dallas to have an influence on its redevelopment, I think something similar is happening within the traditional freeway loop system making up downtown Houston. Indeed, development towards the east side of downtown, an area which still has ample amounts of land for expansion, has also developed sufficiently to now return to flow into the older parts of downtown to have an effect on redevelopment and gentrification.
Nice attempt to deflct since nothing in those statement had anything to due with the subject at hand which was midtown itself. One non of the other districts were created to be new centers and where actually surbs before they became part of the city.
Please stop it has been exposed you really don't know what you are talking about , but you push foward for some odd reason trying to give the appearence of someone who has knowledge of a areas he clearly does not
Though it might seem odd to say, developers in Dallas have never been infatuated with skyscrapers. The Crescent complex built by Caroline Rose Hunt, one of the billionaire daughters of H.L. Hunt, was very short in stature for the time it was built. I think Dallas has moved away from the skyscraper to appreciate the multi-use transit oriented developments more
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I keep hearing you make this arugment yet every time one is proposed dallites come running like a dog with to a bone
Quote:
Let me tell you the truth. It is when people from Houston are passing through the central core of Dallas that they know themselves to be lying about the significance of their downtown. Surely they have to pull over from being awestruck by the immensity and prowess of it all, metaphorically speaking.
Yes we are awe struck.. at how small it feels compared to Houston......I have heard people from NYC and Chicargo talk about the size of Houston... I have never seen anyone use those words when talikng about Dallas.. that is not to say that they did not have nice things to say.. but when asked which one size left you awe struck,
In fact I remeber when I first brought my ex wife from Hampton Va to Texas .. She was shopping for schools and we spent a couple of days in Dallas she was impressed.. this is from a woman who has lived in NYC, ATL, and miami.... then we went drove to Houston.. you know what she said""ohhhhh wow its like a mini new york..(remember now this is from a woman who at one point had actually lived in NYC.. we had not even cross over the highway where you can see the medical center and uptown yet(when we crossed that section she said wait how far does your downtown go !!!. I had to explain to her those where their own area seprate from downtown...
Quote:
This is why Houstonians act nervous and upset about their skyscrapers whining like little puppies while Dallasites act perplexed and curious as to what in the hell is going on with the inferiority complex.
This is so true !! that is why we do over the top things like bridge that so huge you would think you where about to cross over a river instead of a over rated ditch... That is why we light are skyline up like it the vegas strip, that is why we created a victory park center that looks like time sqaure little brother.. to address our sense of inferority
Nice attempt to deflct since nothing in those statement had anything to due with the subject at hand which was midtown itself. One non of the other districts were created to be new centers and where actually surbs before they became part of the city.
Please stop it has been exposed you really don't know what you are talking about , but you push foward for some odd reason trying to give the appearence of someone who has knowledge of a areas he clearly does not
I can accept that Allen Parkway running along Braes Bayou is an acceptable connection between Downtown Houston and Upper Kirby. But that bridge at the intersection of Shepherd at Buffalo Speedway, at the entrance way into River Oaks, ruins it for me. I use to read meters as a meter reader all over the Houston area for HL&P, so I really know the Houston area. That bridge crossing over at Shepherd signals an end to what is the central core area of Houston. I think a civil engineer from Paris would agree with me. The two areas made up of Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, and Uptown Houston is a whole other city core if anything.
If you thought like Caroline Rose Hunt did, you would determine downtown by where the real estate exists in its prime. Downtown Houston is prime for office space. Uptown Houston is prime for retail. What is the prime area for high rise residential construction? So, downtown Houston is downtown concerning office space and Uptown Houston is downtown concerning retail space. All three areas within the core area of Houston seem to share high rise residential construction.
In accepting upper Kirby as being part of the inner core of Houston, one would also have to accept Preston Center into the inner core of Dallas.
With Dallas being far more significant as a retail center than an office center, and with Love Field being so close-in to the inner core of Dallas, I'd consider both it and Northpark to be parts of the inner core.
I can accept that Allen Parkway running along Braes Bayou is an acceptable connection between Downtown Houston and Upper Kirby. But that bridge at the intersection of Shepherd at Buffalo Speedway, at the entrance way into River Oaks, ruins it for me. I use to read meters as a meter reader all over the Houston area for HL&P, so I really know the Houston area. That bridge crossing over at Shepherd signals an end to what is the central core area of Houston. I think a civil engineer from Paris would agree with me. The two areas made up of Upper Kirby, Greenway Plaza, and Uptown Houston is a whole other city core if anything.
If you thought like Caroline Rose Hunt did, you would determine downtown by where the real estate exists in its prime. Downtown Houston is prime for office space. Uptown Houston is prime for retail. What is the prime area for high rise residential construction? So, downtown Houston is downtown concerning office space and Uptown Houston is downtown concerning retail space. All three areas within the core area of Houston seem to share high rise residential construction.
In accepting upper Kirby as being part of the inner core of Houston, one would also have to accept Preston Center into the inner core of Dallas.
With Dallas being far more significant as a retail center than an office center, and with Love Field being so close-in to the inner core of Dallas, I'd consider both it and Northpark to be parts of the inner core.
Except that those areas you keep mention are not suffering fro any growth probelms and continue to see develpment and growth don't they ?
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I keep hearing you make this arugment yet every time one is proposed dallites come running like a dog with to a bone
Yes we are awe struck.. at how small it feels compared to Houston......I have heard people from NYC and Chicargo talk about the size of Houston... I have never seen anyone use those words when talikng about Dallas.. that is not to say that they did not have nice things to say.. but when asked which one size left you awe struck,
In fact I remeber when I first brought my ex wife from Hampton Va to Texas .. She was shopping for schools and we spent a couple of days in Dallas she was impressed.. this is from a woman who has lived in NYC, ATL, and miami.... then we went drove to Houston.. you know what she said""ohhhhh wow its like a mini new york..(remember now this is from a woman who at one point had actually lived in NYC.. we had not even cross over the highway where you can see the medical center and uptown yet(when we crossed that section she said wait how far does your downtown go !!!. I had to explain to her those where their own area seprate from downtown...
This is so true !! that is why we do over the top things like bridge that so huge you would think you where about to cross over a river instead of a over rated ditch... That is why we light are skyline up like it the vegas strip, that is why we created a victory park center that looks like time sqaure little brother.. to address our sense of inferority
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I use to think the same way you do about that bling bling bridge. But then I read an article about the Houston Viaduct also being a signature bridge during the time it was built. They both serve as direct connections towards the southwest into Oak Cliff and towards the west into West Dallas. I wrote a thread in here on the West Dallas development of Trinity Groves and just why it is a can't-lose prospect. To Dallas planners, this venturing across the Trinity River is like the Normany invasion.
Again, Dallas is a round city compared to the city of Houston. There is only one area that isn't well connected to downtown Dallas and that is the area towards the southeast of it which is a part of Deep Ellum with it being her lessor known sister.
While there is an elevated freeway dividing downtown Dallas from east Dallas, the old Main Street still runs eastwardly through Deep Ellum before connecting up with the Dallas Fair Park while, at the same time, Gaston also heads out eastwardly to run through the Baylor Medical Center before running out further to connect with Lakewood.
And both Baylor Medical Center and the Dallas Fair Park are connected by light rail.
Being a grid and a square, downtown Houston shouldn't be considered a square city as it isn't even well connected on four sides. Again, the only nice part of downtown Houston is how both Allen Parkway and Memorial expressway usher out of downtown on both sides of Braes Bayou. The straight stretches by Main and Fannin are also nice, but they are hindered by all those elevated freeways. I actually like the way Almeda runs out from downtown to hug the eastern side of the Texas Medical Center. Why do they want to kill downtown even further by running that tollway all the way to connect on the north side of it between I-45 and I-69?
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