Toledo or Cleveland (Cincinnati, Parma, Youngstown: 2014, apartment complexes, schools)

[J'aimeDesVilles]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

There is nothing about this post that isn't completely ridiculous. First Ann Arbor is not Detroit. They are two VERY distinct cities. The former is a small-ish college town about 9% the size of Cuyahoga County, while the latter is largely a vast, post-industrial wasteland which, while finally improving near the downtown area, is still clawing its way in the dark. It's a tragic situation and almost difficult to believe when you drive through it. Miles of blight, decay, abandoned buildings/homes, brownfields and urban prairies that seemingly go on forever. It's sobering, to say the least. To say that Detroit is a tier above virtually any US city, save maybe the likes of Gary, IN or E. St. Louis, is likely a complete falsehood.

Of course they are two very distinct cities! They are still in the same CSA and only 45 minutes apart.

You criticize my post as ridiculous and then go on the above ignorant rant that indicates you have little knowledge of Detroit and are nothing but a Cleveland homer.

[J'aimeDesVilles]

Originally Posted by TheProf

There are a couple types of pro-Michigan mindsets at work: one says, just because Metro Detroit is bigger than metro Cleveland, it's automatically better which, of course, is ridiculous. The other has this way distorted view that the University of Michigan is Harvard and Ann Arbor is some kind of Cambridge, MA nirvana plopped down in the Midwest that outshines all the hicks around it.

I lived in SE Michigan for 25 years and never heard either of these "mindsets".

Although, as a general rule of them, I would say that when it comes to cities, and the amenities they offer, bigger is better. Obviously, personal preference is going to be the deciding factor.

Definitely never heard the UM-Harvard thing you mention. There is some degree of arrogance associated with UM as it is certainly one of the more elite universities in the Midwest. Although, I would probably put Northwestern above UM.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by J'aimeDesVilles

The two cities are only about 45 minutes apart. Plenty of people live in one and commute to the other for work. Additionally, Toledoans frequently go to A2 for dining, shopping, or sporting or cultural events at UM or EMU.

Eh, more like an hour. That's like saying Clevelanders frequent Cedar point and can work in Mansfield. Yes, a day trip can be made there but so what? A day trip can be made to Ann Arbor from Cleveland. Also, all of the reasons you've just cited - dining, shopping, sporting and cultural events - exist in droves in downtown Cleveland itself. You don't have to drive an hour for any of them.

Curious. How would Detroit's proximity be a reason not to live in Toledo.

I take it you haven't been to Detroit in awhile. Not to knock it because I truly feel for the plight, but the place isn't exactly drawing them in from miles around. Yes, it has improved recently. But not anywhere near what would be needed to be considered as a plus. I know people in Grosse Pointe who could provide you with a run down of the minuses.

[J'aimeDesVilles]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

Eh, more like an hour. That's like saying Clevelanders frequent Cedar point and can work in Mansfield. Yes, a day trip can be made there but so what? A day trip can be made to Ann Arbor from Cleveland. Also, all of the reasons you've just cited - dining, shopping, sporting and cultural events - exist in droves in downtown Cleveland itself. You don't have to drive an hour for any of them.

Maybe downtown to downtown. But, West Toledo/Sylvania to A2 is only 45 minutes. I used to do it daily. At any rate, hardly a day trip. The exurbs of Cleveland are not a whole lot closer to downtown Cleveland (probably 30+ minutes).

I take it you haven't been to Detroit in awhile. Not to knock it because I truly feel for the plight, but the place isn't exactly drawing them in from miles around. Yes, it has improved recently. But not anywhere near what would be needed to be considered as a plus. I know people in Grosse Pointe who could provide you with a run down of the minuses.

Even if this were true, I still don't see how it is a negative to Toledo. At worst, it is a non-issue.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by ferraris

C'mon...let's give credit where credit is due. US News ranks UofM as #24 in the nation, public or private.

The Ohio/Michigan quarrel gets tiresome. As a native Toledoan I'm no stranger to it, but it wasn't so deeply rooted and blindly followed in NE Ohio/SE Michigan as it seems to be in the rest of each state.

Someone gave me a rep for this and I realize I misspoke ! I meant NW Ohio...the knee jerk rivalry is alive and well around Cleveland!

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

Eh, more like an hour. That's like saying Clevelanders frequent Cedar point and can work in Mansfield. Yes, a day trip can be made there but so what? A day trip can be made to Ann Arbor from Cleveland. Also, all of the reasons you've just cited - dining, shopping, sporting and cultural events - exist in droves in downtown Cleveland itself. You don't have to drive an hour for any of them.

I agree. Anything besides day to day life is kind of a moot point. All of these cities are within day-tripping distance of each other.

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

I take it you haven't been to Detroit in awhile. Not to knock it because I truly feel for the plight, but the place isn't exactly drawing them in from miles around. Yes, it has improved recently. But not anywhere near what would be needed to be considered as a plus. I know people in Grosse Pointe who could provide you with a run down of the minuses.

Originally Posted by J'aimeDesVilles

Even if this were true, I still don't see how it is a negative to Toledo. At worst, it is a non-issue.

100% agree. There's enough distance between the two, and a state line, that they feel distinct. Much more so than Akron and Cleveland or AA and Detroit. The main reasons a Toledoean might go to Detroit are the airport (which is only "Detroit"), or events like concerts or sports -- and all of these could draw them to Cleveland just as easily.


Most of the things people "go to the city" for are available in Toledo. Growing up in Toledo I only went to Detroit once every couple of years.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by J'aimeDesVilles

Even if this were true, I still don't see how it is a negative to Toledo. At worst, it is a non-issue.

Well, it is true. But, I digress as what you stated was my original meaning - it's completely irrelevant. I was merely responding to the statement which directly listed its proximity as a positive, to which I responded:

"Both the U of M and Ann Arbor are fine but completely irrelevant unless you have career or educational aspirations there. Neither are a reason to choose Toledo over Cleveland. Detroit's proximity could also just as easily be construed as a reason to not reside in Toledo."

You could tell me the 2-3 positives and I could tell you the 20-30 negatives. Let's just agree on my original point that being an hour away from a city in another state has no bearing on this topic.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by J'aimeDesVilles

Art museums, theatres, outdoor concert venues, zoos, etc. - every major city has them! They all have their little specialties and nuances, but in the end it is just personal preference.

IMO, spoken by a person who likely has no interest in assessing the significant differences between the quality of cultural institutions and other amenities and likely has little ability to do so.

E.g., the Toledo Zoo often is considered superior to Detroit's zoo and reportedly is a major attraction for the residents of Greater Detroit.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by WRnative

IMO, spoken by a person who likely has no interest in assessing the significant differences between the quality of cultural institutions and other amenities and likely has little ability to do so.

This is most people. The vast majority of people are not going to be critiquing the symphony or art museum like they are Frasier and Niles Crane. There's a reason that most people find Bud Light, Olive Garden, and Honda Civics perfectly acceptable (myself included -- nobody can be a connoisseur in every domain).

[J'aimeDesVilles]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

You could tell me the 2-3 positives and I could tell you the 20-30 negatives. Let's just agree on my original point that being an hour away from a city in another state has no bearing on this topic.

I think a lot of people in this country would disagree with that! Geez, in some metro areas you can drive an hour and still be within the same metro. At any rate, much of the Toledo area is less than an hour from parts of the A2 area. I can get from my house to the shopping areas on the southside of A2 in 40 minutes. And I'm not sure why you think "another state" has anything to do with it. The state line is as transparent as any county/municipal line. No one here thinks anything of it.