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I agree that certain communities, especially low-income Somali and West Indian communities do have a serious problem with gun violence (and violence in general. There are tons of brutal assaults and robberies we never read about in the paper). Proportionally, there are far more young men from these urban communities engaged in certain types of criminal activity - particularly gangs and drug dealing - that sometimes lead to murder.
But before I continue my post, I would like to add that the OP's hysterical response to this problem is completely uncalled for and detached from the reality of violent crime in Toronto. Compared to our American counterparts, and even many large European cities, violent crime in Toronto is very low, and gun violence is so rare that in all the years I lived in Toronto (and I've lived in some rough neighbourhoods, including the infamous Jane/Finch neighbourhood) I have never heard gunshots, nor have most of the people I know, with the exception of a few people actively involved in a criminal lifestyle. If you compare Toronto to New York City, which is an extremely safe city these days and the safest large city in America, even in our worst years for body counts, we have less than half their murder rate. In the last four years, our city with its 2.7 million people had less than fifty murders three of those years, and 62 during the worst year. In the last six years, there have been 220 people killed by firearms, an average of 36 per year. Compare this to any American city of any size (and even most Canadian cities) and you will see how low this is. I am not saying that these murders are not tragic, and that it is acceptable for even one gun murder to occur anywhere, but the reality is that we are living in a violent world where violent crime will never be eradicated. As a result, living in a city with one of the lowest murder rates in the Western World is pretty good for me, and tells me we are doing something right. Also. the vast majority of these crimes are not committed by immigrants, and I do believe that it already is the Canadian government's policy to deport immigrants who are found guilty of a violent crime, so I don't know what you're getting at. Our black population is almost entirely made up of Canadian citizens, many of whom are second or even third generation.
So back to the problem of gun violence in the black community in Toronto and how to deal with it, it is an extremely complex issue that I cannot even begin to get into in a single post on a message board. To summarize my opinions, which are based on working with young people of colour involved in criminal activity, as well as young people of colour who are not, plus many hours of reading, of listening to members of the communities where most of these crimes occur, amd hours spent studying statistics and spending time in the neighbourhoods talking to people I've come to a few conclusions.
I do believe that the communities most affected by these crimes are spending too much time and effort defending themselves and blaming the government, and not enough time looking for solutions within the community through introspection and open discussion of the issue. There are certainly things the wider community, including government and business can do to improve the lives of young men by investing in their communities and doing everything possible to give young men of color opportunities to find an attractive life away from the street. This could include building community centres where young people can do more than just play sports - where they have access to computers with free courses in computer animation, programming, design, Photoshop, and music studio equipment to cultivate passions in music, a photography workshop that teaches kids how to use a camera and take good pictures, then lends the, cameras to complete assignments. These are just a few of the kinds of activities that all young people crave, and those who live in low-income neighbourhoods rarely have access to. It could also mean partnerships between schools and businesses to secure paid internships for students who excel and are passionate in a particular subject, from art and design, to journalism, music, finance, science, etc. If you give low-income youth options that are more appealing than the street, most of them will stay away from the street. Young people are all alike - they need investment and resources to reach their potential, but they don't really have these things in their neighbourhoods. They also need some hope that if they do work hard in school they will be rewarded with a good job. There needs to be less emphasis on a university education, which is becoming more and more irrelevant in the modern economy, and more emphasis on skilled trades with opportunities for co-op programs early in high school, and even paid internships for credit. The possibilities are endless and all of them would help the situation. This is not just a law enforcement issue. Cops may raid housing projects and bust up gangs, leading to a temporary drop in crime. But in a few years the next cohort comes of age and starts new gangs, beginning the cycle all over again. And I don't even want to get into the problems police have caused in these neighbourhoods through criminal harassment (the TAVIS program is an excellent example), racial profile, and abusive behaviour towards innocent kids treated as criminals because of the way they look.
Now, on the other end, the communities affected by this violent have even more responsibility to stop looking to the government for a solution and start looking to themselves. There are too many broken homes, too many parents involved in criminal activity, too many single mothers with children they cannot afford and no father to support them and provide a male role model. And male role models may be the most important thing that these communities need. Many low-income communities, of all colors, have too many fatherless households where the children grow up not experiencing male affection, male discipline, and a male role model that gives them a positive image of how men should behave in society. Without these male role models, the girls yearn for male attention, and as they hit puberty they often exchange sex for affection simply because they crave that male attention so badly. Young boys on the other hand, have had no examples of true 'manliness' to emulate, other than what they see on TV and the movies, and the successful dealers, hustlers, and bangers in the neighbourhood who are respected (read: feared), have friends, money, girls, cars - all the trappings of success. Having drawn their influence from poor role models, they end up with a warped view of how a man behaves and what defines 'manliness'. This often leads to aggressive and violent behaviour in an effort to gain what they call respect, but which is really fear. Their egos are so fragile that any perceived slight or insult must be met with force. These are issues that only the communities themselves can deal with, by redefining 'manliness' and bringing it back to what it should be, with positive role models in the community willing to step up and mentor kids. Sure, guys shouldn't abandon their kids, but that happens all across all colors and the social-economic spectrum. But again, the respect afforded to players in the culture has to change so that more young men don't feel the need to screw every girl they lay eyes on.
I could go on for pages, but the point is that both parties need to contribute more to solving the problem. The OP's overreaction and finger-pointing is not going to help anyone. Taking the time to understand the issue in all its complexity and then making some positive contributions and not just posting angry tirades on a message board will do far more to have a positive effect on this issue you seem to care so much about.
Such a shame that one small group of people can cause so much damage and murder in an otherwise extremely peaceful city.
I mean seriously if you removed young black males from Toronto, there'd probably be less than 10 murders a year and virtually zero gun related homicides and gun crime in general. Year after year its the same damn thing, but it will never change because we can't just say publicly what everyone already knows and simply deal with the problem head on.
Where does it say the shooter is black? Your posts in this thread are extremely disgusting to read.
Congratulations on being a racist bro. You should be very proud of yourself.
I've heard all the arguments and its saddening how you cant address any problem due to racism or you are a bigot, this is why we go nowhere. This is not the same situation as 100s of years ago where there was slavery, that was disgusting and in no way condone such disgusting racism, an individual who is more fit for a position and doesn't get the job cause of race over someone less qualified that gets the position due to their race, that is racism, but going on fact and data and addressing an issue, that's progress and logic, those who quickly dismiss progress as racism are in my opinion not contributing to society and not leaders, simply followers of what's popular to believe. I've done years of science and research and I'm used to using evidence and data to see what's going on and unfortunately the data supports the theory that blacks cause most of the violence. In Canada you can see that about 10% of the prison system is composed of blacks (20% in Ontario), while they only make up about 2.5% of the population in Canada ([url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/12/14/crawford-black-prison.html]Prison watchdog probes spike in number of black inmates - Politics - CBC News[/url]) and in the states its even worse, 13.6% population make up over 40% prison inmates ([url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/michelle-alexander-more-black-men-in-prison-slaves-1850_n_1007368.html]Michelle Alexander: More Black Men Are In Prison Today Than Were Enslaved In 1850[/url]).
So the facts are there, no educated or semi-intelligent person can refute this as racism, the question is why? Is it low socioeconomic position, well I'm sorry but there are an extremely higher number of people from other races in a similar if not lower socioeconomic status than blacks and they don't have nearly as high a percentage of their poor murdering, robbing or assaulting people. The problem in my opinion is culture. Unfortunately its a cool thing and respected to scare and rob and kill others in the black culture. From music genre to interaction with others, force and violence is much more respected than knowledge and education, its cool to be feared and violent. I think a cultural shift and family involvement is important which is missing. If I walk up to someone and they fear me for no reason, I would be devastated and hurt that this person considers me a threat and I would examine why and try to change my attitude to be able to succeed in society and interact with other, this is unfortunately not the case in many black communities and considered cool or desirable to be feared, and if that doesnt work, well here is my gun, now you fear me and if that doesnt work well now I'll shoot you, now you or your friends fear me, its unfortunately highly desirable to be this antisocial with the majority of the population. This is not a racist blog and I feel sorry for all those black families that are educated and that thrive in society, but unfortunately the more truths you point out the more fiercely racism will be imposed on your thoughts by the uneducated that really dont help but always have something to say. I've heard arguments about not being given opportunity, of being poor, etc.. Well there are many immigrant families that lived in very undesirable places coming to Canada whos children ended up doctors and lawyers etc... Because that's what their culture values. Blacks even have more opportunities as they have affirmative action in their favor, but their percentage in professional schools are non existent, why, because culturally this is not important, rapping and basketball are avenues to success (which is much more difficult to succeed in than Med school for example) and once unreached violence and fear is the next method of respect and livelihood for many, rather than settling for family, community and living harmoneously with others, like most other cultures are happy with. I wish this was not the case,but data supports that an unproportionate amount of crimes are unfortunately committed by blacks. I think society should put aside racism, see why the data points in a certain direction and work towards a solution, you dont need to resort to violence or deport everyone if you know the reason behind it, you can simply try to solve it. Its cowardly to say lets deport everyone, that's ridiculous, but its as ridiculous to keep calling everyone racist for point out a fact to try and find a solution.
I should make it clear that in no way am I saying the shooters in Yorkdale were black, no one know that, but somehow this thread became a discussion on the subject.
Last edited by WherestheCat; 04-03-2013 at 02:23 AM..
Deporting people, racial profiling, putting up security barriers, denying that certain groups are not responsible for most of the crime etc. are not solutions. They are not addressing the root of the problem. They will not cause the problem to go away. We should focus our efforts on root causes and attack those. It's the logical and right thing to do. Some other posters, particularly TOKidd, have layed out in great detail the causes of some of these issues. It comes down to the home. Many blacks come from broked families without proper role models which causes them to turn to a glamourized life of violence, dealing, etc. Immigrants from other countries come to the country and are equally poor but they do not have broken homes. The family bonds are quite strong and the emphasis is made on education so it no wonder they do better.
It a difficult problem that I don't think anyone has all the solution to but efforts need to be made within certain communities to promote education and character building programs to supplement what they are not getting in broken homes. They need role models, after school programs, mentors, sports, scholarships, tutoring, volunteering and other activities to teach them the right values and traits to thrive. I'm not an educator but I'm intersted in this issue and have done some volunteer work with at risk youth and have realized these kids have potential to do better, they just don't know any better. They set the bar low for themselves, they don't know what's out there, and they don't have the discipline to do basic things like sacrifice, struggle, concentrate, pay attention, etc. I don't have all the answers but I believe they need a push and we need people who care to push them. I've read about success on a small scale in certain US cities. There are a lot of experiential programs going on in the US that have had great results in terms of turning around troubled youth but they require investment in great educators and new methods. I feel the only way to tackle this problem, or at least make it better, will require leadership and will on the part of our education system/government. It will require an investment of time and money by our governments and inspired educators to make this happen, but I'm afraid it doesn't rank high on our list of priorities, especially in challenging economic times.
WherestheCat
I agree with much of what you say, except that I think Montreal is probably the safest city. With a population of 3.6 million in Greater Montreal, the number of homicides last year was 31. The majority of them were Mafia-realted, where they were busy killing each other, rather than innocent citizens minding their own business.
In some environments going to jail is seen as a rites of passage to manhood rather than a disgrace.
These are cultural issues that have to be addressed, the gov't can only do so much and even when they do, they might inadvertently exacerbate a problem.
WherestheCat
I agree with much of what you say, except that I think Montreal is probably the safest city. With a population of 3.6 million in Greater Montreal, the number of homicides last year was 31. The majority of them were Mafia-realted, where they were busy killing each other, rather than innocent citizens minding their own business.
Montreal and Toronto have fairly comparable crime rates and safety levels. Some years one is worse than the other, then it's the other one. There isn't a significant difference between the two I would say.
Few places have such a high concentration of people than a big shopping mall. There are plenty examples of places that have screening devices at mall entrances in the world. Why do you think they have them, to appease safety freaks or maybe - just maybe they actually do act as a deterrent. Not a big deal and may be a practical solution. Sure you can get killed anywhere but seldom is there outrage when someone is killed in a car accident than a bullet shot in a busy shopping mall.. I dunno maybe my perspective of reality is flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthYorkEd
Slippery slope. How much freedom are you willing to trade for a false sense of "security"? Shootings can happen anywhere. You have much more chance of getting killed or injured driving to the mall. The last thing I want is some underpaid and under-trained security person patting me down or giving me the stinkeye when I just want to grab a coffee and stroll the mall. If we are all going to live in fear we might as well just stay home.
I dunno maybe my perspective of reality is flawed.
I'm just saying we need to approach the issue rationally and cautiously. Statistically, these types of events are rare and perhaps don't warrant a police state level reaction just yet. People tend to attach inordinate amounts of fear to remote possibilities, like "bushy haired strangers" coming out of the bushes to steal their children, terrorists blowing up airplanes, and now droopy-drawered gangstas shooting up malls.
Child abductions and molestations are almost always committed by family or friends, airplanes are still much safer than cars, and most gang-related crime, with rare exceptions, is targeted directly at specific victims. We've already suffered enough indignity and personal violations at airport security checkpoints (as if terrorists have no other options to do damage other than planes). If they start doing patdowns at malls I will just not go.
There is nothing certain authorities would like better than for us to fall at their knees and willingly surrender our freedom and dignity in exchange for "protection". Fear can be a very potent tool to exploit and makes manipulation of the populace easy. Speaking of which, prepare for Bird Flu Scare 2: Electric Boogaloo, coming in 2013.
I still have a better chance of winning 6/49 than getting shot in a Toronto mall, so nope, not ready to be molested by some minimum-wager in order to feel "safe". Unless, of course, the guard is a young attractive female. I could probably contain my outrage for that frisking.
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Your posts in this thread are extremely disgusting to read.
