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I disagree in the sense that it DOES NOT go beyond race and its almost ALL about race when the overwhelming number of violent incidents involves blacks particularly when it comes to gun crime and murder.
This is the result of the failure of blacks THEMSELVES to their children and its NO ONE ELSE'S FAULT and here's why. In Toronto there's no completely black neighborhoods as you see in many US cities. There are parts of Toronto/GTA where there is a higher concentration of blacks than other areas, but even then there are plenty of non-blacks living in the exact same apartments, townhouses and public housing as blacks do and non-black families have their kids growing up in the same enviroment and going to the same schools but guess what? Very few of their kids grow up to be violent and even fewer that grow up to feel the need to carry a gun around.
So if violent behavior and kids growing up to become criminals isn't a result of black ghetto culture, bad parenting and hanging around bad people then what is it? You can't blame it on poverty when non-black kids can grow up mostly fine in the exact same conditions. So if what I'm saying is right, then why can't we be honest about it and get blacks to get their crap together?
I would LOVE to see crime statistics broken down by race/ethnic groups, but everyone already knows that blacks will be at the top of that list despite having a tiny population in Toronto and I guarantee you they would do everything they could to stop such info from being release because they wouldn't want to be so publicly embarassed and ashamed by it.
The thing is why is it up to the rest of society to pay for and provide all these services to blacks when no other ethnic group needs it? How is it fair that the rest of us have to pay for all the failings of portions of black communities who can't raise their kids right? We have to pay for the police required to keep them in line, the medical services to patch them up when they kill or wound themselves and then the social services to try and prevent the problem from growing even larger.
Almost all of these problems stem from many blacks simply not using common sense and having a deep commitment to raising their kids right. I mean seriously if you don't want to be responsible for raising kids, THEN USE PROTECTION or have an abortion instead of having a kid that will grow in a bad home. And if you do decide to have a baby, THEN RAISE THEM RIGHT. Most non-black parents seem to do a good job of it, but for many black parents, they either aren't capable or equiped to doing a good job or else they just don't care to and that is why its a never ending cycle of violence among them.
And with regards to racial profiling etc, I think some form of it is necessary in that we need to target them as much as possible to fix this problem and if blacks don't like it that's too bad and for those blacks who are peaceful who are caught up in this, its unfortunate but it needs to be done. Racial profiling and targeting blacks to reduce crime didn't come out of nowhere. It came from years of black crime and murder in our city. Its not like police or people in general woke up one day and decided that blacks were violent and need to be targeted. They brought it upon themselves and now we need to get tough to clean things up once and for all.
I'l admit that in this instance I jumped the gun and assumed blacks were involved. They may or may not have been since police didn't release more info, but even if you assume that the shooters were non-black in this case, that doesn't change the fact that blacks are still involved in the majority of shootings and murders in Toronto.
I mean just a few days after the Yorkdale shooting, a black teen was shot in a driveby and I think you won't disagree when I say the shooters were likely black. The point is just because a few shooting a year don't involve blacks, it doesn't change the fact that probably 95%-98% of crimes involving guns is committed by blacks.
Again 352,000 blacks are causing more crime and murder and gun crime that the other 4.7 MILLION+ non-blacks living here and if you want to dispute this go here:
And see if more blacks or non-blacks are murdered at the end of the month and also look at the circumstances in which they were killed and then tell me I'm racist for being honest about the facts.
man...did you lose your girl to black guy or something?.....I think what you should do is round up all of us (even those who actually don't commit crime which...gasp..is the majority) and send us either "home" even though most were born here or concentration camps..would that satisfy you?
The majority of black citizens in Toronto are law abiding and work hard... the fact that a minority of this group represents the majority of violent crime is an issue, but it is more dangerous to assume that most are causing problems when it is only a small few. How many black people do you actually know and are friends with? If you did have honest black friends I hardly think you'd be coming in here swiping at an entire group of people. You already came in here ASSUMING that the latest mall violence was attributed to blacks when it wasn't - you can't even see beyond your own hate for the group to think objectively about it let alone preaching about facts and alternate realities! I'm sorry but views like yours are every bit as dangerous as a gun if not more so!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Sterling
I think people who willfully ignore all the facts and evidence presented that show a definite pattern that has been trending the same direction for decades now in favor of living in their own alternate reality or for political correctness' sake is the most dangerous of all.
You might be the exception, but if Detroit's black population is so wonderful and peaceful there wouldn't be hundreds of murders annually there right? And other people wouldn't be fleeing to the suburbs to live in peace and leaving Detroit a ghost city right? Just because you didn't experience violence when you were there it doesn't mean that Detroit isn't a craphole city that's been ruined by the black population there.
What? Exception? Hardly, friend. I couldn't even count how many places in Detroit you would **** your pants being in, that I have been. Not because they are dangerous, but because they are majority black. Because for some unknown reason, you fear black people.
Did you see that word? That word, up there? PEOPLE. They are PEOPLE. NO - DIFFERENT - THAN - YOU - OR - ME.
Oh...except that whole skin thing.
Do you have ANY clue, what the black population has gone thu in Detroit...no......ANYWHERE? I'm not just talking racisim, I'm talking about keeping blacks out of white neighbourhoods, out of white jobs, schools, government programs, the whole kit and kablootle? EVERYTHING.
You just, expect them to bounce back?
Have you EVER been to Detroit? I don't mean driving thru on you way to Miami or whatever. I mean BEEN to Detroit? Or did you just drag the streetview guy around?
Have you ever spoke with someone who lives there? I was there today, to watch a ball game. Bought a CD off a guy on the street who was promoting his album. It sucked. But I bought it because he was a super cool guy, who was trying hard to get his name out. He didn't give a **** that I was white.
Looked like a thug by your standards, I'm sure of it.
Get this, it will blow your mind:
I touched him.
We shook hands. My God. I didn't turn into a criminal.
You think Detroit is the way it is because of black people?!?!? LMAO!!!!!
It was a one industry town, man! The cars left, and so did the jobs. WTF do you want? You think if it was still full of white people it would be fine?
OH! You know what? It WOULD be fine. Unfortunatly, stupid white people, like you, got alllllllll upset that the scary black folk were moving in to their neighbourhoods, and they fled to the suburbs, leaving the city EMPTY. It went from 1.5 million in the 1950's, to 715,000 last year.
Social programs and back room zoning laws prevented the black population from leaving their tiny little portions of the city, and things began to rot. Well, now that all that **** is rotten, and there in no tax revenue coming in.......mmmmmmmm, okay, lets let them live in the fancy areas. TOO BAD THEY CAN'T GET A JOB THAT MEANS ANYTHING.
On welfare ya go!
Hundreds of murders? True, but guess what?
THEY ARE STARVING!!!! You either work a meanial job, or you sell drugs.
There is your end result.
White people are the only ones to blame for that in the end. Not blacks.
What? Exception? Hardly, friend. I couldn't even count how many places in Detroit you would **** your pants being in, that I have been. Not because they are dangerous, but because they are majority black. Because for some unknown reason, you fear black people.
Did you see that word? That word, up there? PEOPLE. They are PEOPLE. NO - DIFFERENT - THAN - YOU - OR - ME.
Oh...except that whole skin thing.
Do you have ANY clue, what the black population has gone thu in Detroit...no......ANYWHERE? I'm not just talking racisim, I'm talking about keeping blacks out of white neighbourhoods, out of white jobs, schools, government programs, the whole kit and kablootle? EVERYTHING.
You just, expect them to bounce back?
Have you EVER been to Detroit? I don't mean driving thru on you way to Miami or whatever. I mean BEEN to Detroit? Or did you just drag the streetview guy around?
Have you ever spoke with someone who lives there? I was there today, to watch a ball game. Bought a CD off a guy on the street who was promoting his album. It sucked. But I bought it because he was a super cool guy, who was trying hard to get his name out. He didn't give a **** that I was white.
Looked like a thug by your standards, I'm sure of it.
Get this, it will blow your mind:
I touched him.
We shook hands. My God. I didn't turn into a criminal.
You think Detroit is the way it is because of black people?!?!? LMAO!!!!!
It was a one industry town, man! The cars left, and so did the jobs. WTF do you want? You think if it was still full of white people it would be fine?
OH! You know what? It WOULD be fine. Unfortunatly, stupid white people, like you, got alllllllll upset that the scary black folk were moving in to their neighbourhoods, and they fled to the suburbs, leaving the city EMPTY. It went from 1.5 million in the 1950's, to 715,000 last year.
Social programs and back room zoning laws prevented the black population from leaving their tiny little portions of the city, and things began to rot. Well, now that all that **** is rotten, and there in no tax revenue coming in.......mmmmmmmm, okay, lets let them live in the fancy areas. TOO BAD THEY CAN'T GET A JOB THAT MEANS ANYTHING.
On welfare ya go!
Hundreds of murders? True, but guess what?
THEY ARE STARVING!!!! You either work a meanial job, or you sell drugs.
There is your end result.
White people are the only ones to blame for that in the end. Not blacks.
Good post, very true, but I doubt this going to convince Mr. Sterling of anything.
The thing is why is it up to the rest of society to pay for and provide all these services to blacks when no other ethnic group needs it? How is it fair that the rest of us have to pay for all the failings of portions of black communities who can't raise their kids right? We have to pay for the police required to keep them in line, the medical services to patch them up when they kill or wound themselves and then the social services to try and prevent the problem from growing even larger.
Almost all of these problems stem from many blacks simply not using common sense and having a deep commitment to raising their kids right. I mean seriously if you don't want to be responsible for raising kids, THEN USE PROTECTION or have an abortion instead of having a kid that will grow in a bad home. And if you do decide to have a baby, THEN RAISE THEM RIGHT. Most non-black parents seem to do a good job of it, but for many black parents, they either aren't capable or equiped to doing a good job or else they just don't care to and that is why its a never ending cycle of violence among them.
And with regards to racial profiling etc, I think some form of it is necessary in that we need to target them as much as possible to fix this problem and if blacks don't like it that's too bad and for those blacks who are peaceful who are caught up in this, its unfortunate but it needs to be done. Racial profiling and targeting blacks to reduce crime didn't come out of nowhere. It came from years of black crime and murder in our city. Its not like police or people in general woke up one day and decided that blacks were violent and need to be targeted. They brought it upon themselves and now we need to get tough to clean things up once and for all.
The ones that do get involved in illegal activities are generally raised in broken homes, that's fact. And the question of whether we want to attack this problem at the root is a decision we need to make as a society. We all pay taxes and these tax dollars either go to common good programs like roads, schools, etc. or more specific programs that help some more than others. That's the way the system works. It's give and take and reflect our priorities. With respect to comparing to other immigrants, you need to realize that a lot of immigrants who come to Canada and live in poor conditions are actually educated. They can't get good jobs and live in crappy apartment buildings but a lot of these people had better education (that isn't recognized in Canada) and jobs back home. In other words, they understand the value of education to survive so they push those values on their children. It's not the impoverished farmer class in India and China that are emigrating to Canada, it is people that meet certain education requirements. Ask the next foreign cabbie what his job was back home and you might be surprised.
Currently, I'm not aware of much being done specifically in Canada to support these poorer black communities. We have more generous social welfare programs that keep a floor on poverty overall, however, so that helps reduce crime. There are some non-profits out there but I don't know of any serious efforts by the education system to reform and build up these communities. Again, I'm not expert and don't have every detail but I haven't seen much improvements from one generation to the next. So my point is that we are actually doing exactly as you suggest right now, i.e. we don't seriously support these communities with public money. And what has doing nothing got us, it has got us the same levels of violence and crime and no improvements in education and income levels. Your obviously not happy with the current situation so what do advocate instead of complaining? Doing nothing and telling a community to get their act together, as you suggest, is clearly ineffective and will not work. Organic change will be very slow and will take many generations to even affect small changes.
Certain Charter schools in the US have turned around schools that lets say had (I don't remember the exact #s) 5 of 100 students who go to university to ~30 of 100 students. Better teachers, programs and mentorship to support at risk kids does work. It's proven on a small scale but I agree it costs time and money. Even controversal (and imperfect) programs like scholarships, affirmative action, job programs have created a solid black middle class in the US and they will have children who more likely not get an education and they will serve as mentors in their communities. Sometimes you need to extend a helping hand and sacrifice something if you want to accelerate change for others. People raised by strong families don't understand how a broken home destroys ones outlook, confidence, and general cognitive abilities. They are disadvantaged from birth - they have mountains to climb with no equipment or training. Your attitude of not wanting to put forth the effort is normal as I don't think there is a "will" by the majority of the population, especially in current economic times. Our violent crime rate is still low for a city this size but our poverty rates are actually quite high and I'm sure we will continue to do as you wish right now: don't invest, criticize, look down, and segregrate ourselves from these people. So lets continue sweeping problems under the rug and sit back and wait for the next shooting because nothing is going to change otherwise, especially with your attitude and suggestions. Nor does being close-minded to the issues faced by these poorer communities help in any way either.
Last edited by johnathanc; 04-10-2013 at 09:46 AM..
People need to feel value and self-worth. You do not feel valuable when your father abandons you and your family. You do not feel valuable when you see few or no black authority figures in the grand scheme of society. In some places, you can go your entire life without ever seeing a black teacher, police officer, politician, or professional (such as doctor or lawyer) who is relevant to your life. Even Toronto council is mostly white folks.
You do not feel valuable when society tells you time and time again that you are not physically attractive (notice how "white" Beyonce and other female black celebs look these days?). Always, the "most beautiful people" and the most celebrated icons are predominately white. Society tells you in a wide variety of ways, some subtle and some not so subtle, that you are outside, not part of the whole, not good enough. And combined with generations of neglect, oppression, discrimination, and often being left to fend for yourself, it is not a surprise that many fall to crime.
In the gang world they feel power and belonging for the very first time. It can be very hard to resist. But I disagree that government will solve the problem. It is something the community needs to address and make progress towards. The change must come from within.
In the gang world they feel power and belonging for the very first time. It can be very hard to resist. But I disagree that government will solve the problem. It is something the community needs to address and make progress towards. The change must come from within.
I agree that the government cannot solve the problem by itself. I wish that it was that easy. But public money from the education system and other policies could create opportunities for them to do better if done in a smart manner. This can create some momentum for change at help somewhat. "Change from within" sounds great but I don't understand how that's a viable strategy. They don't know any better to begin with just like you described.
"Change from within" sounds great but I don't understand how that's a viable strategy. They don't know any better to begin with just like you described.
We've all heard stories of kids that grew up in similar situations but somehow got a leg up. Maybe a teacher, a parent, or someone in a position to do something saw the potential and made something happen. But all too often there is a culture of failure, where parents don't even want their kids to succeed. It's almost like they hold them back and drag them down deliberately.
This is what I mean by change from within, the ability of parents to recognize opportunities and to encourage their children. Unfortunately, I think there are negative vibes and mindsets put on kids from an early age that are hard to overcome, especially when society continues to confirm them time and time again. Much like this thread, where it was assumed that the shooters were black before we knew any of the details.
We need to be better (less discrimination, less racism, etc) so that they can be better, if that makes any sense.
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