Do people really hate Toronto that badly? (assess, friendly)
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Easily the biggest trait a Canadian has is the the ability to be masters of b*tching and the whining.... As I always tell Americans, if you want to find a Canadian out of a crowd, look for the complainer. I hope this post doesn't come off like that.
No matter who you are or where you're from, someone will "hate" you for it. People from T.O. hate people from Calgary, People from Calgary hate people from Manitoba, people from Manitoba hate people from Saskatchewan, and people from Regina and Saskatoon hate each other.
The thing that disturbs me is the hostility and animosity between the provinces. I have never witnessed it anywhere in the US, must just be a Canadian thing.
My personal opinion is that based on previous visits, I don't like Toronto. There are some cool tourist attractions, but really, what else is there? It's a business town. The big city thing doesn't do it for me. Might make more money, but the traffic! Are you kidding me?
I don't want to say it, but the people there are stuck up, rude, annoying and not very welcoming. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, and I have met some great people. For the most part however the vast majority of folk I have met exhibit at least one of those traits.
The other thing that really bothers me is this constant chest thumping from residents. It's not the centre of the universe guys. I understand a little bit of civic pride, but you guys go overboard, and give the rest of Canada a black eye.
A lot of people are not jealous of what T.O. has. I have a million dollar house with a perfect view of the mountains - why would I want a view of a big dirty city? If that's what you want, go ahead.
I personally could care less, as I'm all the way out here, so what happens in T.O. really has no bearing with me.
Speaking simply from a slightly different natural/geographic point of view, I fail to understand why any human being would live in that environment, or choose to build a city there. There are a thousand better places in north America I could think of that have better weather, better temperatures, better natural wonders and less cold, humidity, and wind.
Just my .02, but those are my observations.
Why do the provinces hate each other? Dunno but I have two pet theories... One is equalization. Rob Peter to pay Paul. The other is Canadian preoccupation of "jobs for da boys" and the protectionist rules and regs to do that. Usually a rule to give someone an advantage hurts someone else. Usually most everyone else. Look at the agriculture marketing boards (legal price and production fixing cartels) and the liquor laws (help everyone at the expense of the consumer) for details... There are literally thousands of examples.. Equalization is a big one though.
It's a big city, not a small town. And it requires your effort as well. If you visit expecting people to be rude then nine times out of ten your attitude will be greeting with like. But if you're friendly, no one is going to look like you're from Mars. And again, it's a big city, not everyone is alike and not everyone will have the same experience of the city you do. I find people friendly and engaging, but I'm friendly and engaging myself. I also know that everyone here seems constantly busy and we don't always have time for each other.
Actually it was rated, 3rd most courteous. After Zurich. New York City was the most courteous and I'd have to say I agree (I used to live there).
Anyone who says it's among the rudest is probably an ROCer or doesn't travel much at all, or both.
Toronto is polite, but not in the Ned Flanders way that the rest of Canada seems to be. Toronto considers leaving you alone to live your own life and getting out of your way polite in itself.
Remember, quite a significant portion of Toronto's population are migrants from the rest of Canada who quite frankly hated small town life... That includes many of the bumbling social conventions.
Thread derail but you're right equalization is a big divider. However, certain provinces that now pay into it were once huge beneficiaries of it (ahem Sask, Alberta and B.C., NFLD) so bitching about it while ignoring the fact that the economies grew because of it is a bit disingenuous. Also, it does serve as a bit of a bribe to other provinces so they can see the benefits of confederation.
What's ridiculous is that Ontario now receives equalization (really a pittance) BUT wouldn't need to if it were allowed to keep its own tax revenue and wasn't still a net payer to equalization (a have not behaving like a have when in reality it's only a have not because the feds are raping it).
If equalization were to go away however (and it won't because the Feds are greedy for tax dollars regardless of where they put them) I think Canadians (essentially decent) would feel bad for provinces that don't generate a lot of tax income for services and would want to help out anyway (ironically).
And Americans do pay equalization among the states. The difference is, there are 50 states and the largest population centers are payers rather than receivers (not so in Canada), so keeping track of where the revenue is going is more daunting for Americans and really, who is going to hate on South Dakota? There are regional dividers too but Americans also move around more and feel their country belongs to all of them while we tend to stay in one place and identify (to a fault) with one particular region.
And Americans do pay equalization among the states. The difference is, there are 50 states and the largest population centers are payers rather than receivers (not so in Canada), so keeping track of where the revenue is going is more daunting for Americans and really, who is going to hate on South Dakota? There are regional dividers too but Americans also move around more and feel their country belongs to all of them while we tend to stay in one place and identify (to a fault) with one particular region.
Agreed. As well, since we are a finance/construction/natural resources economy, (those 3 industries represent 50%+ of Canada's economy and market) this requires people move for work, or the work leaves your hometown and you follow. Since people are attached to their regions more in Canada this breeds resentment. Americans tend to move for lifestyle, climate, pursue opportunity, etc. Canadians tend to move to leave a depressed region.
You see this phenomena in the Ontario small towns resenting Toronto "taking our kids away" or the practically institutionalized fact of young folks moving to Alberta.
People from places like Calgary and Toronto as resent these folks moving to the city and bringing their "country bumpkin hick" habits with them...
Since the cities in Canada are growing while the regions are shrinking, power is also flowing to the cities. Power is also flowing west from the east but Eastern Canada is still more powerful.
The resentment of Toronto is a resentment of power and a resentment of growing wealth and potential.
Toronto and Montreal are Canada's only two real large cities... Culturally Canada is a small town Ned Flanders kinda place... Think Ned Flanders, upstanding, moral, polite til it hurts yet passive/aggressiveness and all.. Toronto is not like this and that hurts the relationship.
To cure this, the number one thing we could do is promote cheaper and more convenient travel between regions in Canada. A Southwest Airlines or an EasyJet/Ryanair operating in Canada would do wonders for national cohesiveness. Unfortunately the government would rather protect Air Canada and its Montreal HQ jobs. I'd venture to say that if this country ever broke up it would be because it is too hard to travel and make those crucial connections.
Wow you sound like you have a very biased view. I've traveled all over the world and it's one of the friendliest cities around (one thing I was struck by after moving back was complete strangers talking to each other while queuing up). It doesn't even rank on the rudeness scale in terms of major Canadian cities. But considering you're from the west where Toronto is equivalent to the anti-Christ, I get your (misplaced) bias
I'm not biased. I do not hate toronto just because "I'm from the west." I have just seen in my personal visits that it's very boring and unfriendly, that's all. If I am missing something great about the centre of the universe, please let me know.
Toronto is a very boring city. The night life is only Fri and Sat night and it's meh at best. There's no nice beaches or scenery. Not sure why anyone lives in Toronto or Canada. Canada is only good for those people who immigrate from 3rd world countries.
I have to disagree that Torontonians are rude. I have been all over the world and Toronto is one of the most polite and courteous big cities I have ever been in.
As for being friendly and an easy place to make friends, well this is a whole other matter.
I think many of the people who are new to Toronto from Canada have a nostalgic view of where they are from. This is especially true of Atlantic Canadians, who are very numerous in Toronto.
While it is true that Atlantic Canadians are very spontaneously friendly when serving you in restaurants or stores, or in casual contact, it is not really that easy for an outsider to make friends there. People tend to be descendants of long-established families there and their social circuit is almost pre-determined. There is not always much room left for someone who is « from away » as they often say.
I know this for a fact, as both I and my family have been through this in several parts of the Maritimes.
So of course your average person from PEI who moves to Toronto may find it hard to make friends initially in the big city, but they should consider that Torontonians, even though it is a big city, are probably just doing the same thing that Islanders also do. He just doesn’t notice it when on PEI because he is part of the « clan ».
Toronto is big enough and diverse enough that you can almost always find fellow « clan » members there to hang out with, whether that clan is made up of Spud Islanders, or even people from a small town in Italy or Pakistan.
Thread derail but you're right equalization is a big divider. However, certain provinces that now pay into it were once huge beneficiaries of it (ahem Sask, Alberta and B.C., NFLD) so bitching about it while ignoring the fact that the economies grew because of it is a bit disingenuous. Also, it does serve as a bit of a bribe to other provinces so they can see the benefits of confederation.
Economies grew because of equalization? If that's what you're trying to say, then I think that you're way off base here. Many thoughtful commentators believe that equalization has long been a drag on growth, especially in the regions it is intended to benefit.
Alberta and Newfoundland grew because of oil and gas exports, exports which have to do with international demand and world prices, both things that have nothing to do with equalization. Likewise, Saskatchewan grew because of periodic high prices for its most important international exports, agricultural products and potash, and to a lesser extent, oil and gas. These provinces would have periodically enjoyed spectacular rates of economic growth even if the equalization program had never been created.
If I recall correctly, B.C. was almost always a net contributor to the equalization formula, but that likely changed over the last fifteen years or so with the collapse of the forest products sector. Additionally, except for a brief period between 1957 and 1964, Alberta has always been a net contributor to equalization.
I'm not crazy about the equalization program, but part of the reason that it exists is to attenuate imbalances created in Canada by the National Policy, a policy established to benefit the economic growth of Montreal and Ontario at the expense of other parts of the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by autobahn1
If equalization were to go away however (and it won't because the Feds are greedy for tax dollars regardless of where they put them) I think Canadians (essentially decent) would feel bad for provinces that don't generate a lot of tax income for services and would want to help out anyway (ironically).
As noted above, I'm not crazy about the equalization program, but I question whether those Canadians in well-to-do provinces would meaningfully help Canadians from less prosperous corners of the country in its absence.
I have to disagree that Torontonians are rude. I have been all over the world and Toronto is one of the most polite and courteous big cities I have ever been in.
Similarly, I have also been all over the world and I must respectfully disagree with you. On the whole, I think that Torontonians are pretty rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
As for being friendly and an easy place to make friends, well this is a whole other matter.
Um, well if Toronto is not friendly, then it is unfriendly. Rude, if you will. I should think that this is a black and white proposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
While it is true that Atlantic Canadians are very spontaneously friendly when serving you in restaurants or stores, or in casual contact, it is not really that easy for an outsider to make friends there. People tend to be descendants of long-established families there and their social circuit is almost pre-determined. There is not always much room left for someone who is « from away » as they often say.
I agree with this assessment.
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As I always tell Americans, if you want to find a Canadian out of a crowd, look for the complainer. I hope this post doesn't come off like that. 