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That was hilarious Eusebius, I can't rep you right now though,
Many people take "spiritual" out of body experiences very seriously, including the ancient pagans and modern Christians. I believe the mind is a powerful thing. And I mostly use the argument from multiple/contradictory revelations to shrug off the importance of these "visions".
Even back when I was a touring Deadhaed (many eons ago), I never had one of those experiences. But I saw a lot of people who did seem to be experiencing one, right in front of me. So I think you can add Deadheads to LT's list of "ancient pagans and modern Christians."
They are real enough and I am quite curious about them. There are perhaps the best evidence for a 'soul' separate from the physical body and some of the anecdotes are rather compelling. However, we can't jump to conclusions. Experiences are perceived in the mind and so it is often difficult to distinguish between what is perceived by the mind and what is produced by the mind.
Also anecdotes are just that, and the sad fact is that too many when checked up turn out to have been somewhat enhanced in order to be more persuasive. Doesn't make them all false, just means that we have to be careful.
I personally don't mind if these OOB experiences are the effect of a soul. I don't mind having a soul any more than I mind having hearing and I would not ask for my money back if I found that there was a life after death after all. None of that would make any difference to my conviction that personal religions and their gods are all man- made inventions, so I really have no bias here other than towards scientific skepticism.
On the other hand, I have to reckon with OOB being no more than voices in the head, the feeling of a 'presence' and the prayer effect - very likely tricks played by the mind. The OOB case has still to be made and needs to be based on hard, checked, demonstrated and falsified evidence, not just 'you can't prove it isn't true!'.
That was hilarious Eusebius, I can't rep you right now though,
Many people take "spiritual" out of body experiences very seriously, including the ancient pagans and modern Christians. I believe the mind is a powerful thing. And I mostly use the argument from multiple/contradictory revelations to shrug off the importance of these "visions".
When I was in college we were sitting around in this one class and the subject came up about out of body experiences. I explained mine like in the OP and the class erupted in uncontrolled laughter.
LT, I too think the same as you. And yes, the mind is a very powerful thing.
That was funny. If you're at all serious, then I would direct you to the story of Pamela Reynolds. Youtube it. She had a brain tumor, or something similar - very serious, and was operated on by Robert Spetzler, a very well known neurosurgeon. Her brain was essentially drained of blood, and her temp dropped to 60 some degrees. Her eyes had been taped shut, and plugs placed in her ears that made a screeching noise. She was unconscious prior to being taken into the surgical chamber. She had a classic out of body experience, felt a sort of popping out of her body and "looking" over one of the surgeon's shoulders. She described the equipment used ( it had been wrapped in sterile wrappings prior to being opened during the surgery ), the conversations, with amazing clarity. She was flat lining during this time - basically brain dead. Suddenly she saw the classic light as a sort of speck, and was drawn to it. It became much brighter, and well... the rest is typical of what many people claim to have experienced. Some scientists claim that this is the brain releasing chemicals at the time of death. But in the case of Reynolds, two things 1) her ability to describe what was going on while she had no blood in her brain and her eyes and ears blocked off, and 2) the lasting results that seem to be common amongst those who have NDE, as opposed to drug or meditation induced events. Then become changed people. I have no idea what all this truly means, but there is too much information here to simply dismiss. Watch the BBC production that includes the Pam Reynolds by the way. One last thing, she like many others who had this experience, had no desire to return. She found it.. well... heavenly.
They are real enough and I am quite curious about them. There are perhaps the best evidence for a 'soul' separate from the physical body and some of the anecdotes are rather compelling. However, we can't jump to conclusions. Experiences are perceived in the mind and so it is often difficult to distinguish between what is perceived by the mind and what is produced by the mind.
Also anecdotes are just that, and the sad fact is that too many when checked up turn out to have been somewhat enhanced in order to be more persuasive. Doesn't make them all false, just means that we have to be careful.
I personally don't mind if these OOB experiences are the effect of a soul. I don't mind having a soul any more than I mind having hearing and I would not ask for my money back if I found that there was a life after death after all. None of that would make any difference to my conviction that personal religions and their gods are all man- made inventions, so I really have no bias here other than towards scientific skepticism.
On the other hand, I have to reckon with OOB being no more than voices in the head, the feeling of a 'presence' and the prayer effect - very likely tricks played by the mind. The OOB case has still to be made and needs to be based on hard, checked, demonstrated and falsified evidence, not just 'you can't prove it isn't true!'.
Arequipa, I agree. But, evidence is starting to accumulate and research is being conducted at some of the best universities in the world. See my post regarding Pamela Reynolds. It seems to me the implication of her experience is that consciousness exists outside the body. This seems to comport with some of the basic tenets of Eastern religions. Buddhists may be atheists, but they believe in the immortality of the soul. It seems to me then the Buddhists reject a transcendent deity, and yes there is "something" sacred in life, but it is imminent, in all life, and in each of us. It simply leaves the body at death and continues in another dimension. If find this as a Westerner a bit hard to accept, especially those traditions that teach a sort of nihilism - that our consciousness joins the ulimate source of consciousness, and personal identity is erased. I guess we will find out... or perhaps not. I do think as interesting as all this is, that we all try to have "near life experiences". Too many people go through life never having had such an experience.
I had something like that once when I was around 13. I was laying in bed and 'floated' to the ceiling face up then turned over, saw myself laying in bed, had a moment of panic wondering if I was dead, and was suddenly just laying there in bed. I never thought to attribute any religious connotation to it - figured it was just a weird dream or whatever.
I had something like that once when I was around 13. I was laying in bed and 'floated' to the ceiling face up then turned over, saw myself laying in bed, had a moment of panic wondering if I was dead, and was suddenly just laying there in bed. I never thought to attribute any religious connotation to it - figured it was just a weird dream or whatever.
Occam's Razor takes care of a lot of what people believe are out of body experiences. Medical science has explained OBEs in depth, there is nothing supernatural going on.
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Evidence is emerging...
