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I regret what happened but the whole thing was engineered by those who wished to get a reaction from the army. In this they were successful. Republicans got what they wanted and so they could be shown as the only defence against the might of the British Army.
The Shankill bombing was a different set of circumstances. Those killed did not have guns in their hands. They were out doing a days shopping. The Saville inquiry showed that those opposing the army had guns.
See, you cannot do it, hence Irish Bob correctly pointing out how Unionist/Loyalists are programmed not to give an inch.
You incorrectly imply that those shot during Bloody Sunday had guns in their hands by then saying those killed in Shankill did not.
Nice try but no sale.
So of course both incidents were different, as that could be said about anything. However the point is that violent massacres against innocent people (especially by the government) can never be justified unless there is some extraordinary circumstances, such as in WWII with the dropping of the atomic bomb.
Neither incident can be justified, but you didn't see me or others in this thread saying "I regret Shankill but the IRA were trying to take out murderous UDA leaders".
While we can all have different opinions based on our own perspectives from a historical standpoint, to ever make progress to get along and live together in the future, common ground and understanding (if not trust) need to be established.
So let me try to approach this in a different way with you.
Since you think Bloody Sunday was in some fashion understandable (if not justified), what IRA mission (that didn't accidentally involve innocent civilians) was justified, if any?
Indeed, "Bloody Sunday" by U2 put the massacre on the map worldwide, to an audience that otherwise might not have heard or interested in other countries affairs.
Yet you might be surprised to hear a decent amount of Americans who support a unified Ireland, didn't care for the lyrics saying "but I will not head the battle call".
Instead they would have preferred something just the opposite, hoping this would finally make those who wanted a peaceful solution or were too ambivalent to risk their necks, get involved and fight the British.
I'd say it was more of the NORAID types, but there certainly were enough to actually condemn the song just on that aspect alone.
Needless to say that stuck me as strange, if for no other reason, that the song had to be an overall positive in that it exposed some of the violence, prejudice, and bigotry experienced by the Irish in their own country.
Thus even the NORAID types should have been happy with 95% of the lyrics, but were too entrenched to see anything but 100% agreement as unacceptable.
That seems to be some of the biggest problems with the NI issue, that far too many bullheaded and stubbornly entrenched people on both sides wont give an inch.
I guess when you put Irish, English, and Scottish together and ask them to reach a consensus, you are going to have a very long process ahead of you.
Indeed, "Bloody Sunday" by U2 put the massacre on the map worldwide, to an audience that otherwise might not have heard or interested in other countries affairs.
Yet you might be surprised to hear a decent amount of Americans who support a unified Ireland, didn't care for the lyrics saying "but I will not head the battle call".
Instead they would have preferred something just the opposite, hoping this would finally make those who wanted a peaceful solution or were too ambivalent to risk their necks, get involved and fight the British.
I'd say it was more of the NORAID types, but there certainly were enough to actually condemn the song just on that aspect alone.
Needless to say that stuck me as strange, if for no other reason, that the song had to be an overall positive in that it exposed some of the violence, prejudice, and bigotry experienced by the Irish in their own country.
Thus even the NORAID types should have been happy with 95% of the lyrics, but were too entrenched to see anything but 100% agreement as unacceptable.
That seems to be some of the biggest problems with the NI issue, that far too many bullheaded and stubbornly entrenched people on both sides wont give an inch.
I guess when you put Irish, English, and Scottish together and ask them to reach a consensus, you are going to have a very long process ahead of you.
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The british isles need to need secularize, federalize, and become a federal republic. Make London into washington DC. Each state (include ireland) within the republic should have domestic home rule.
Build the irish sea tunnel and bring back reform celtic paganism without the human scarifice. All problems solved.
The british isles need to need secularize, federalize, and become a federal republic. Make London into washington DC. Each state (include ireland) within the republic should have domestic home rule.
Build the irish sea tunnel and bring back reform celtic paganism without the human scarifice. All problems solved.
I do not see that as a viable solution, at least as it pertains to the NI situation. The main crux of Irish Nationalist/Republican reasoning is to have one island governed by their own, not an alien power.
Your proposal would do just the opposite, by consolidating "federal power" in London.
Additionally with nationalism being the theme of the day in both Scotland and even Britain throwing off the shackles of governance from Brussels via Brexit, I do not see a clamoring for such a plan.
So while I suspect the orange tribe would like such a plan, rest assured the green tribe would not.
Yesterday was Remembrance Day in Ulster. This was not forgotten by the Polish people who laid a wreath to all those citizens of Belfast who had died in the Luftwaffe bombing
Irish Nationalists/Republicans might *** about Britain being an alien power according to Vector1 but one has to be reminded that the Irish Republic for all it's advanced modernism could NOT exist on it's own. Indeed it like places such as Greece and other smaller places couldn't get into the EU any faster. Ireland remained a slightly backward place with strings often held by a corrupt religious tradition. It simply could not advance and therefore depended on the money from Europe. As I have previously accepted the Ireland of today has moved on but through the money supplied via Europe including Britain. That Ulster is stuck with a mob like the SF is not helpful and their pals murdered more folk than their opposite numbers. People need reminding that Southern Ireland deleted from their constitution a claim on Ulster and although that country south of the line has much modernised their Prime Minister does not impress me much!
Irish Nationalists/Republicans might *** about Britain being an alien power according to Vector1 but one has to be reminded that the Irish Republic for all it's advanced modernism could NOT exist on it's own. Indeed it like places such as Greece and other smaller places couldn't get into the EU any faster. Ireland remained a slightly backward place with strings often held by a corrupt religious tradition. It simply could not advance and therefore depended on the money from Europe. As I have previously accepted the Ireland of today has moved on but through the money supplied via Europe including Britain. That Ulster is stuck with a mob like the SF is not helpful and their pals murdered more folk than their opposite numbers. People need reminding that Southern Ireland deleted from their constitution a claim on Ulster and although that country south of the line has much modernised their Prime Minister does not impress me much!
Yes our taoiseach is a bit of a Tony Blair, a creature of spin.
That said, no other nation would expect their leadership to prioritise another state ahead of their own yet some British people appear surprised the Irish leader is not on the pitch every day batting hard for blighty.
I've no doubt the EU will drop us in it if need be but I also have no doubt the UK will do what is best for them even we pay a big price.
How strong is support for Ulster nationalism in present day Northern Ireland by the way ? Is it a fringe position or are many people fed up with being tied to London in a non Irish Republican way ?
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