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It's not obvious at all. You may think it is, but that's completely inaccurate in reality.
Explain why the Mafia asking for payment with underlying threat of violence is different to a government asking for payment with underlying threat of violence (because arrest, and imprisonment are violent)?
Don't go all tangential justifying it (the ends justify the means) since you nor I know the justification for any theft in truth, some guy pitching your TV out the window may be to pay for the first food he and his kids have eaten this week. I just want to know your explanation.
If you see no difference between stand over bully boys out for own personal gain, and government that taxes for supposed benefit of society, meaning you and me and Alfiee and Maud in struggle street, and supposedly attempt to run a civil society in the process, then woe is you I'm afraid.
For people to allow themselves to be used in such ways as you enrich others while dehumanising others in the process, says everything that needs to known about how sick the so called society is.
Further the point. If Labour isn't returned that will under the Boris camp and future look alikes will just get worse.
Well my response to that is take a break from Far Right blogs and propaganda and perhaps to avail yourself the inclination to travel.
You neglect to include Far Right terrorism, where the real danger lays including England sadly, but no play the Islamophobe card yet again. The right approach would be to condemn all terrorist acts not your selected ones in an attempt to further an ideological point.
Heavy handed police? Not solely the domain of the French flic's. UK police can be brutal just the same. You may or not recall the deaths of a Newspaper salesman some years back by heavy handed policing, and the cover ups. Indeed it goes right back to 79 and New Zealand teacher Blair Peach murdered by police who was part of an anti fascist demo out in Southall area.
No go areas have long been the 'norm' out in especially the suburbs of Paris and bigger resulting from poor urban planning in the extreme and intuitional discrimination along with a host of other issues to complex nor worth going into here.
I doubt if the French would lose sleep over your final comments. More likely scared that once viewing France from inside, you'll not want to return when witnessing the overall improvement on life quality in that country.
Far right terrorism in England ?
Perhaps you can give a few examples of this.
The last far right person of any prominence to stand in an election - Tommy Robinson - lost his deposit.
And for police brutality you mention something that happened 40 years ago ?
But thanks for proving my argument about differences between the two countries - " no-go areas have long been the norm " .
I can hear the sound of a barrel being scraped.
Far right terrorism in England ?
Perhaps you can give a few examples of this.
The last far right person of any prominence to stand in an election - Tommy Robinson - lost his deposit.
And for police brutality you mention something that happened 40 years ago ?
I can hear the sound of a barrel being scraped.
Well what I hear and real is either blissful ignorance or chosen avoidance. A bit of both I suspect.
Far Right terrorism is well documented. Instead of constantly seeking to high light your Islamophia or indeed name calling of The Left, bring your mind to focus on a certain Labour MP murdered just a few years back. There's been attacks on Gay venues in ethnically diverse neighbourhoods, I mean really I do it from the top of my head but not hard to find examples.
And that newspaper vendor was not forty years ago. How many killed by police in France in comparison?
Well what I hear and real is either blissful ignorance or chosen avoidance. A bit of both I suspect.
Far Right terrorism is well documented. Instead of constantly seeking to high light your Islamophia or indeed name calling of The Left, bring your mind to focus on a certain Labour MP murdered just a few years back. There's been attacks on Gay venues in ethnically diverse neighbourhoods, I mean really I do it from the top of my head but not hard to find examples.
And that newspaper vendor was not forty years ago. How many killed by police in France in comparison?
You say far right terrorism is well-documented yet you're unable to provide any examples.
The killer of Labour MP Jo Cox had mental health problems and far right views but had no links to any organised terror group.
That's because there is no organised far right terror group in Britain.
There isn't even a far right political party with any serious following or representation.
You say it's not hard to find examples.
Well,find them.
I'll put the kettle on.
If you see no difference between stand over bully boys out for own personal gain, and government that taxes for supposed benefit of society, meaning you and me and Alfiee and Maud in struggle street, and supposedly attempt to run a civil society in the process, then woe is you I'm afraid.
For people to allow themselves to be used in such ways as you enrich others while dehumanising others in the process, says everything that needs to known about how sick the so called society is.
Further the point. If Labour isn't returned that will under the Boris camp and future look alikes will just get worse.
I actually don't see the difference because there is no difference. Sure their is different ends, but, one in law is considered theft (extortion) the other not. Both use 'bully boys', try not paying tax to meet the Tax bully boys.
If this is for services to be supplied, so what? This is especially true with progressive taxation. You don't go to stores and they charge you by income. Utilities don't ask you to pay more because you earn over a certain limit.
If it's to help the country, how does sending $19B to the EU help the country directly? How does sending $18.5B to other countries in aid help the people directly?
I don't think you've really thought about this, at all, you can't articulate a difference without dragging in ends, ends don't determine the legality of an action. If you steal a car to get your pregnant wife to hospital it's still car theft, your sentence might be reduced due to circumstance, or set aside, but you're still guilty. The action is illegal.
Do you think Dave that the country isn't in a mess? Trouble is people are becoming desensitised into thinking that foodbanks and rough sleepers are a part of normal life.
You still haven't indicated what your solution is to the perceived notion that income tax is theft.
Sorry for my late reply to your post geoff. I wasn't feeling so good yesterday.
Did you see the telly show a few weeks back, with some guy pretending to be homeless? He travelled to different parts of the country, to try and find just what is going on. I remember he spent time in London, Manchester, Glasgow, and a few other places.
He found much of it is a scam. One guy in London had a flat, but still begged, as it was a good way of getting money from concerned folks. He managed to get a £50 note off one guy coming out of a fancy restaurant. He was jubilant at the drugs he could buy with this money.
In Manchester, there was a homeless community right in Piccadilly Gardens, right in the centre of Manchester. These people just begged during the day, and at night, various charities brought them food. The money they got from folks was spent on booze and drugs.
This secret filming was an eye opener for me. It revealed much of the begging we see on the streets is a scam. Not all of course, and that's the problem. How do you decide who is a con merchant, and who is seriously in need?
This is what has happened to our society, and it's shameful. Who or what is to blame for this? I don't know. Maybe the growth of illegal drug use this last 50 years. Folks with personal problems unable to cope with life. I know there was none of this, even 20 years ago.
There is much wrong with our society. A lack of housing for one, ensuring we see massive rents for poor accommodation. Last time I read about it, over £25 billion pounds a year given out to greedy landlords in rent support. Just think how many council houses that money could build. But then again, where are you going to build all these needed houses? We have a constantly growing population caused by massive immigration,year in year out.
Now, on to the other question in your post, about my solutions if I think all income tax is theft. Do you know the highest rate of income tax, right up into the 1960s was 97.5%? This was the sort of taxation folks like the Beatles were having to deal with. It gradually came down in later years. It was Margaret Thatcher who reduced these extortionate rates more towards what we have today.
This shows what governments are capable of. They will steal almost all your earnings, for their grand schemes. Jeremy Corbyn,and his gang, are promising the earth if they gain power. Their plans will cost far more than the money coming in now can afford.They then have two choices. Massive raising of taxes, or borrowing. There is only so much borrowing you can do, but taxation? The skies the limit.
My answer to your question is that of course, taxation is necessary for society to function. But, excess taxation just drives talented people out of the country. Like it or not, the people in this country who take risks, the sort that start businesses, are the wealth creators. Those who are employed by them, depend on their jobs from the smart people. That's it in a nutshell. We have to encourage the smart people to believe risk is worthwhile. That they will benefit from it if successful.
I'll give you an example. My Uncle George started an engineering business back in the 60s. He and a friend invested their money, and built a business, that eventually employed hundreds of people. He eventually moved to a very nice home, and when he retired, an even better home by the sea in Lytham St. Annes. Don't you think he was entitled to the rewards from the business he started from nothing?
Many of the poor people you mention using food banks and such are part of the underclass created by Margaret Thatcher in the 80s. They sank into deprivation, in the following years. The smart among them got out, and looked for a better life. The mass immigration this last 20 years did nothing for their chances of improving their lives. Who does an employer give a job to? The smart Polish person, well educated and willing to work hard, or the English person turning up late for the interview, only there because the employment office sent them there? We now have an underclass of unemployables.They have grown up in homes with a father who doesn't work, or no father at all. They leave school with few or no qualifications, and don't go to work. Living like this, on benefits ensures within a short time, they are unfit for work in modern society. What's the answer? I don't know.
Last edited by English Dave; 12-07-2019 at 03:46 AM..
Country in a mess ?
Poverty levels are no worse in the UK than any other major country in the EU such as France and Germany and significantly better than others.
Rough sleepers have been a part of life in the UK forever including under Labour government.
The reality is low unemployment levels, record job opportunities and rising wages.
And all this despite a massive increase in the population by many millions in recent years.
The UK is not without many problems but unlike France yesterday there has been no general strike and weekly violent demonstrations in London and the economy is not heading into recession as is the case in Germany.
And waiting in the wings is massive amounts of inward foreign investments put on hold because of the uncertainty over Brexit.
Blighty is not a bad old place - if it was why do do many people want to live there both legally and illegally ?
To say that poverty is no worse in other European countries is a non argument. It's akin to saying to a starving man that his condition is no worse than the starving man next to him.
Rough sleeping which has risen by 165% since 2010 you dismiss with a similar flourish. You lot really do surf the statistics, skim off the bits that suit you and preach it endlessley.
The same with employment levels - it wouldn't matter if the whole workforce was starving you'd still be trumpeting 'low unemployment.'
'Indifference to suffering is such a horrible trait.
But very Tory.'
To say that poverty is no worse in other European countries is a non argument. It's akin to saying to a starving man that his condition is no worse than the starving man next to him.
It's easy to think of the current status quo as fixed and fair but it's constantly moving better / worse, good / bad. Whether this change is fair is completely down to the pov of each individual viewing it through the lenses of their ideology.
That's why for long term planning a more systematic view is required of where the country should head and the mechanics and detail of getting there. Those mechanics are always going to be in the grey rather then the black and white of purist ideology.
I actually don't see the difference because there is no difference. Sure their is different ends, but, one in law is considered theft (extortion) the other not. Both use 'bully boys', try not paying tax to meet the Tax bully boys.
If this is for services to be supplied, so what? This is especially true with progressive taxation. You don't go to stores and they charge you by income. Utilities don't ask you to pay more because you earn over a certain limit.
If it's to help the country, how does sending $19B to the EU help the country directly? How does sending $18.5B to other countries in aid help the people directly?
I don't think you've really thought about this, at all, you can't articulate a difference without dragging in ends, ends don't determine the legality of an action. If you steal a car to get your pregnant wife to hospital it's still car theft, your sentence might be reduced due to circumstance, or set aside, but you're still guilty. The action is illegal.
Taxes are not illegal though, and that's what determines the legality of an action.
To say that poverty is no worse in other European countries is a non argument. It's akin to saying to a starving man that his condition is no worse than the starving man next to him.
Rough sleeping which has risen by 165% since 2010 you dismiss with a similar flourish. You lot really do surf the statistics, skim off the bits that suit you and preach it endlessley.
The same with employment levels - it wouldn't matter if the whole workforce was starving you'd still be trumpeting 'low unemployment.'
'Indifference to suffering is such a horrible trait.
But very Tory.'
But the whole workforce isn't starving.
It's earning a wage and paying taxes.
Taxes which provide income and support for the less well off.
Welcome to capitalism baby.
Only a socialist could say " yeah,but " to full empployment.
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