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^^To add: These figures show the white populations in these countries in the last few years. In the 50s, it was most likely even lower (also the case in the US of course).
Never said there wasn't racism in Canada, there was tons.
In Canada however there wasn't a legal enforcement nor was there one dominant minority race unlike the US. The escaped slaves who settle in Ontario back in the 1850s went to the same schools as the white kids. Tons of racism but there was never a complete division of the races which the US had both socially and institutionally. You had small ethnic communities but not whole swaths of a city of one race who were uniformly poor and disenfranchised.
Our most common non-caucasian group were Native Canadians who were not urbanites as the vast majority still lived on reserves or very isolated villages in the North. Canada also didn't have the history of slavery which instilled a long term distrust and even violence towards blacks which was still prevalent, and in many areas, still socially acceptable in 1950. This idea that you didn't go to a school due to your race was never part of Canada's history. Even if you were Native, if you lived in an area you went to the same school as other kids in the area.
Despite the obvious racism in Canada, our history is quite different than yours. In Canada we have always had too major ethnic groups, two languages, and two religious realities........English and French. To this day our largest Christian denomination is Catholicism. In short we've never had one dominate culture to speak for the country as a whole nor one dominant minority to pick on.
Never said there wasn't racism in Canada, there was tons.
In Canada however there wasn't a legal enforcement nor was there one dominant minority race unlike the US. The escaped slaves who settle in Ontario back in the 1850s went to the same schools as the white kids. Tons of racism but there was never a complete division of the races which the US had both socially and institutionally. You had small ethnic communities but not whole swaths of a city of one race who were uniformly poor and disenfranchised.
Our most common non-caucasian group were Native Canadians who were not urbanites as the vast majority still lived on reserves or very isolated villages in the North. Canada also didn't have the history of slavery which instilled a long term distrust and even violence towards blacks which was still prevalent, and in many areas, still socially acceptable in 1950. This idea that you didn't go to a school due to your race was never part of Canada's history. Even if you were Native, if you lived in an area you went to the same school as other kids in the area.
Despite the obvious racism in Canada, our history is quite different than yours. In Canada we have always had too major ethnic groups, two languages, and two religious realities........English and French. To this day our largest Christian denomination is Catholicism. In short we've never had one dominate culture to speak for the country as a whole nor one dominant minority to pick on.
You have a very distorted view of the US. The entire US was not operating under legally enforced division of races in 1950, or ever. We had a little tiff over this you may have heard of, called the Civil War. There were 39 states in the US then, 23 free, 5 "border" (allowed slavery but stayed in the Union) and 11 slave states that seceded. This is not the place for a history lesson on the Civil War, but really. In "the north" schools were integrated, there was no dual system. I went to integrated schools in Pennsylvania in the 1950s. Heck, my father went to the same schools in the 1920s. My sister-in-law, OTOH, remembers segregated lunch counters in Maryland, a border state, in the 50s/60s. The far western states, particularly California where >10% of the population lives, have little overt racism or history of it.
I believe the largest Christian denomination in the US is also Catholicism.
I said at first that there was legal segregation in the South but the North, although not entrenched in law, was nearly as segregated socially, economically, and geographically by social norms of the day. "Technically" there were no laws to stop blacks moving into a white area but of course on a social level, they would be refused for some odd reason, future neighbours would force them out, and real estate agents wouldn't show homes to blacks in white neighbourhoods. In North there were "legally" no all white neighbourhoods but in the 1950s reality, the vast majority of neighbourhoods/communities in the North were just as segregated as in the South. The overt racism wasn't as entrenched in the North as the South but under no, way, shape, or form did white Americans in the North want to be living beside blacks anymore than Southerners did.
American cities had blacks and when they wanted their equality violence occurred and the whites left in droves for the safety and freedom of the nice new white suburbs. They took their spending power and tax money with them leaving the inner cities with a shrinking population, bankrupt businesses, and a much smaller tax base.
Again, although "technically" against the law, the suburbs were designed for white people so the poor blacks had no where else to go except stay in the inner cities with declining infrastructure, crumbling schools, dying businesses, and a imploding tax base resulting in poorer social services like police, transit, fire, and social supports.
Detroit was once a booming city in the early 20th century and was overwhelmingly white. Now it is an impoverished city and overwhelmingly black.
Katrina...........You and I obviously have different ideas on "what happened to American cities" and I respect that. That is what these forums are for, intelligent conversation and the exchange of views.
This does make me wonder though...........what is it that YOU think happened to US cities? It wasn't just high car ownership levels or suburban development as Australia/NZ and Canada also have those things.
So what do you think the reason is?
I said at first that there was legal segregation in the South but the North, although not entrenched in law, was nearly as segregated socially, economically, and geographically by social norms of the day. "Technically" there were no laws to stop blacks moving into a white area but of course on a social level, they would be refused for some odd reason, future neighbours would force them out, and real estate agents wouldn't show homes to blacks in white neighbourhoods. In North there were "legally" no all white neighbourhoods but in the 1950s reality, the vast majority of neighbourhoods/communities in the North were just as segregated as in the South. The overt racism wasn't as entrenched in the North as the South but under no, way, shape, or form did white Americans in the North want to be living beside blacks anymore than Southerners did.
American cities had blacks and when they wanted their equality violence occurred and the whites left in droves for the safety and freedom of the nice new white suburbs. They took their spending power and tax money with them leaving the inner cities with a shrinking population, bankrupt businesses, and a much smaller tax base.
Again, although "technically" against the law, the suburbs were designed for white people so the poor blacks had no where else to go except stay in the inner cities with declining infrastructure, crumbling schools, dying businesses, and a imploding tax base resulting in poorer social services like police, transit, fire, and social supports.
Detroit was once a booming city in the early 20th century and was overwhelmingly white. Now it is an impoverished city and overwhelmingly black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooguy
Katrina...........You and I obviously have different ideas on "what happened to American cities" and I respect that. That is what these forums are for, intelligent conversation and the exchange of views.
This does make me wonder though...........what is it that YOU think happened to US cities? It wasn't just high car ownership levels or suburban development as Australia/NZ and Canada also have those things.
So what do you think the reason is?
OK, in your first post on this issue you said: In the North it wasn't the law but it was just as prevalent as in the South.
However, that is untrue. I already gave the example of my own childhood in Pennsylvania vs my SIL's in Maryland. Maryland, mind you, a border state that isn't even in the "deep south". Just what is your experience with this, that you can make such a statement?
Later, you said: In Canada however there wasn't a legal enforcement nor was there one dominant minority race unlike the US.
This implies the entire US. Again, untrue.
Re: the second bold, just how do you know this? Please post some sources.
As far as city tax bases, the cities still had the vast majority of the shopping in 1950, and most of the businesses. People commuted to their jobs in the city. Businesses pay all sorts of taxes, and in some cities, workers pay a "wage tax" to the city where they work. It was, and still is but to a much lesser extent, the suburbs that have residences which typically do not make much money for a municipality.
Your second post is interesting as I was thinking of this response to your comments about Detroit-Detroit's problems go way beyond its racial mix. They have more to do with the bad fortunes of its once major industry, automobile assembly. While I have little experience with Detroit, I read that it's doing better lately. Most cities are doing pretty well these days. There is no great "crisis" in US cities.
I would like to add, the schools in Omaha, Nebraska, where my husband attended in the 50s/60s, were also integrated. Gale Sayers (sp?) went to his high school.
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