Seriously, what's wrong with living in the suburbs?? (suburban, highway, downtown)

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

go back and read that sentence in context.

Oh, context. Yes. Hm, someone who has shown a disturbing lack of reading comprehension for three or four pages of this thread is now telling me about context. Look what I would have missed if I stayed in bed this morning.

So, context it is. Everything makes sense to me now. Except....

You said those people aren't here anymore. I said, I'm waiting for them to come back.

....for this. Are you so eager to fight with them that you're going to strike first before they even get involved in the current discussion? That's a rare breed. If only people could get this dedicated to issues that really mattered.

You think that it's the residents job as well as the planners to plan how a town is built?

I think it's their job to make sure their voice is heard. If you like having the government make all the decisions for you, that's your business, but you're going to encounter people who aren't so keen on that.

I can tell you with Florida, there were LOTS of protests to building. They built anyway. It was actually pretty pitiful at how much the towns didn't care what people thought. Lots of people would show up at town meetings to protest more growth and it didn't make a difference. It got to be that the town meetings were more a formality to make the residents think they had a say in things, when really they didn't. Sprawl and poor planning falls squarely on the shoulders of the people who make the decisions.

So they might as well have just not shown up and let the developers and the politicos getting their kickbacks bend everyone over with no questions asked. Is this what I'm to glean from this? Or is this in some sort of "context" I don't understand?

In most suburbs in the South this was and is kind of how it works. Before a bunch of developers and transplants came in, there were people whose lives and homes were there. They lived a simple life with farms and small businesses long before Wal-Mart and Starbucks and so forth were around.

What you're used to in the Northeast is a completely different beast. I've tried explaining that, in several posts, but you had to go and lock onto one or two lines, make an insult out of it that isn't there and rant for four or five paragraphs before calling it good.

Anyway, it's fascinating that someone would be so vocal about people bashing the 'burbs on some Internet forum but are happy to just let government call all the shots about where we live. Except when it's some "new urbanist" development, of course, then we reach for the pitchforks.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by jfre81

And before anyone goes into how transit is a big-government subsidy - in the day of streetcar suburbs, transit systems were private enterprises. They only stopped being competitive as private enterprises when the government got into subsidizing highway construction.

It was a bit more complicated than that.

Originally Posted by jfre81

Oh, context. Yes. Hm, someone who has shown a disturbing lack of reading comprehension for three or four pages of this thread is now telling me about context. Look what I would have missed if I stayed in bed this morning.

So, context it is. Everything makes sense to me now. Except....



....for this. Are you so eager to fight with them that you're going to strike first before they even get involved in the current discussion? That's a rare breed. If only people could get this dedicated to issues that really mattered.



I think it's their job to make sure their voice is heard. If you like having the government make all the decisions for you, that's your business, but you're going to encounter people who aren't so keen on that.



So they might as well have just not shown up and let the developers and the politicos getting their kickbacks bend everyone over with no questions asked. Is this what I'm to glean from this? Or is this in some sort of "context" I don't understand?

In most suburbs in the South this was and is kind of how it works. Before a bunch of developers and transplants came in, there were people whose lives and homes were there. They lived a simple life with farms and small businesses long before Wal-Mart and Starbucks and so forth were around.

What you're used to in the Northeast is a completely different beast. I've tried explaining that, in several posts, but you had to go and lock onto one or two lines, make an insult out of it that isn't there and rant for four or five paragraphs before calling it good.

Anyway, it's fascinating that someone would be so vocal about people bashing the 'burbs on some Internet forum but are happy to just let government call all the shots about where we live. Except when it's some "new urbanist" development, of course, then we reach for the pitchforks.

You know, I think we really need some mod action here. A mod has posted on this thread. Maybe she could take a look at this constant stream of personal attacks and other posts directed at individuals and not the topic. I for one, am getting d*** tired of them.

[jfre81]

You were so tired of it you had to quote it in its entirety so we get to read it twice. Brilliant strategy.

Originally Posted by Katiana

It was a bit more complicated than that.

Do explain. You're the one who keeps going on about getting back on topic, so here's your chance.

[Yankeerose00]

Jfre all I'm going to say is I wasn't talking about you. If you are going to choose to get offended on behalf of the people who insult all suburban living and the people who choose to live that way, then have at it.

So they might as well have just not shown up and let the developers and the politicos getting their kickbacks bend everyone over with no questions asked. Is this what I'm to glean from this? Or is this in some sort of "context" I don't understand?

You are gleaning wrong. I'm saying it did not freakin' matter what the people wanted. They protested their little hearts out and the builders still built! I've spent half my life in the northeast and the other half in the south. I know exactly how each works. Protesting is like voting. Things don't always go your way no matter how hard you try.
The point is, it is not the residents' of the town's fault that sprawl happened because it was ultimately NOT their decision.

In most suburbs in the South this was and is kind of how it works. Before a bunch of developers and transplants came in, there were people whose lives and homes were there. They lived a simple life with farms and small businesses long before Wal-Mart and Starbucks and so forth were around.

yes and when things started to get built up, they were pissed.
then you have people who moved to these towns in the south from other places. They moved to the town based on the town being small. They felt angry or betrayed for lack of a better word when within 5 years of moving, their little town wasn't so little anymore and there wasn't a damn thing they could change about it.

What you're used to in the Northeast is a completely different beast.

I know that. I've lived 20 years in the north and 20 years in the south. They are very different as most cities and suburbs througout the US are different. That is why any proposed change and criticism NEEDS to be specified as to what suburbs you are referring to. To use suburb and sprawl interchangeably is misleading at best and offensive at worst.
What is wrong with using the sprawl that was seen in Texas or Arizona as an example of what is wrong? Because there is a lot that is wrong with that. A whole lot.
Be more specific.

Anyway, it's fascinating that someone would be so vocal about people bashing the 'burbs on some Internet forum but are happy to just let government call all the shots about where we live.

I call the shots about where I live. I made my decision to move based on what I wanted. Period. End of story. The history of the suburbs is neither here nor there. It really had no impact on why I moved where I did. I'm all for smaller government by the way.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

Jfre all I'm going to say is I wasn't talking about you.

I know you weren't. I figured it was another morsel for the yet-to-arrive "little city urchins."

Is it that you want to think you're offending me? You're not. You're amusing me, if anything.

That is why any proposed change and criticism NEEDS to be specified as to what suburbs you are referring to. To use suburb and sprawl interchangeably is misleading at best and offensive at worst.

I think one of the points you're missing here is that not everyone gets as offended as you do.

I call the shots about where I live. I made my decision to move based on what I wanted. Period. End of story. The history of the suburbs is neither here nor there. It really had no impact on why I moved where I did. I'm all for smaller government by the way.

Good to hear. If you're that secure about your decision-making, why do you get so concerned about other people's opinions and view them as some sort of attack on your way of life? Is it reaffirming to you? Or is your life so happy that you have to create something to fight about?

[Yankeerose00]

And using Florida as another example..... you have these small towns with residents who were basically born and raised there. Then you had developers come and build small subdivisions here and there. Some of them only being a street or two. Not sprawling at all. The towns start to grow.

Then the towns start growing more and more and more. People start getting angry. Residents who've lived there their entire lives are even more angry. The people who moved to these small towns are angry.

A very common retort I heard to people protesting was, "Were you born here?" In Florida, most likely you'll hear the answer no. "Oh you moved here? Well you are part of the problem! It was okay for you to move into your house, but it's not okay for other people to move into their house?"

So a lot of residents in Florida were basically shut down and told they were total hypocrits just because they didn't want to see the town grow to literally double of what it was within 5 years.

For many people, the only people who had the "right" to complain were the people who lived in the towns from the beginning.

So while there was protesting to towns being built, you could see it was a losing battle. I mean, how many people live in the exact same place they were born? I know many do, but probably a good half of America doesn't.

Do you think it's fair to tell people they have no right to protest sprawl just because they didn't live in that town their whole lives? I don't. But many people did not agree with me at all.

[Yankeerose00]

I think one of the points you're missing here is that not everyone gets as offended as you do.

There are plenty of people who get offended by the bashing of the suburbs. On this board and in real life. It's an old, tired stereotype that's been around as long as I have. I think there are a lot of posters who are just beat down and tired of battling, frankly.

Good to hear. If you're that secure about your decision-making, why do you get so concerned about other people's opinions and view them as some sort of attack on your way of life?

I don't view it as an attack on my way of life.

It was as I mentioned before, the difference between opinion and judgment.

If a person hates the suburbs, that's cool. No offence, it's their choice to not live there.
But judgment over the suburbs themselves and the people who live there is offensive.
And it's just so misleading to use the word sprawl and suburb interchangeably.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

I think there are a lot of posters who are just beat down and tired of battling, frankly.

Then stop. People quit doing things if they don't get responses. Oooh, somebody said something on the Internet, let's get whipped into a frenzy about it now. Seriously? Do you really lose sleep over it?

I don't view it as an attack on my way of life.

You say it's offensive at the beginning of this post and then you say it's not an attack. Then why get offended? Kind of a contadiction.

It was as I mentioned before, the difference between opinion and judgment.

But nobody's judging anything.

If a person hates the suburbs, that's cool. No offence, it's their choice to not live there.

I don't even "hate" the suburbs. I might not enjoy living there. Just like, say, I wouldn't want to live in a certain part of a city. I'm not crazy about the spot I'm in right now, to tell you the truth, but I'm on my way to doing something about it. Doesn't mean that I hate it here, just that I know I can do better.

And it's just so misleading to use the word sprawl and suburb interchangeably.

Did I do this? Or is this something you're throwing out there for the urchins?

FWIW, where I live, suburbs and sprawl are basically the same thing, but I know in the Northeast it's not the same. I've acknowledged that, repeatedly, and you refuse to credit it.

It's like you're faced with something that went entirely counter to your stereotypes and assumptions that you don't know what to make of it.

I get the same thing when I go into the politic forum.

Do you think it's fair to tell people they have no right to protest sprawl just because they didn't live in that town their whole lives? I don't. But many people did not agree with me at all.

Not really. At the same time, migration from the north brought sprawl to the South, so it's a little like being part of the problem.

[Yankeerose00]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00
I think there are a lot of posters who are just beat down and tired of battling, frankly.
Then stop. People quit doing things if they don't get responses. Oooh, somebody said something on the Internet, let's get whipped into a frenzy about it now. Seriously? Do you really lose sleep over it?

First of all, you need to calm down, Seriously. You are the one getting worked up.

And the people tired of battling I'm referring to are the people who gave me like 20 rep points within the first couple of days. I'm guessing they are lurking, reading and not wanting to jump in and debate because they are tired of it.

Do you think it's fair to tell people they have no right to protest sprawl just because they didn't live in that town their whole lives? I don't. But many people did not agree with me at all.
Not really. At the same time, migration from the north brought sprawl to the South, so it's a little like being part of the problem.

Exactly. They are part of the problem. And they were told this repeatedly.

So they might as well have just not shown up and let the developers and the politicos getting their kickbacks bend everyone over with no questions asked. Is this what I'm to glean from this? Or is this in some sort of "context" I don't understand?

This is why a lot of people didn't bother. If people expressed concern over sprawl, they were often quickly shot down. It's not at all that I think they should bend over. I'm just saying why a lot of people did.
Shot down by the people who were natives as well as transplants. The quick retort of "If you weren't born here, you have no right to protest" is a big, huge, glaring reason why a lot of people do not oppose sprawl.
If asked individually, many if not most people don't care for ugly sprawl. But standing up and protesting it was a different story. They were told they were hypocrites. And they were facing the speculators and builders who had the town in their back pocket. It was like facing a giant.

This should give some insight as to why people don't oppose sprawl like they should. But it should be noted that there were many people like myself who did oppose it. It just didn't matter.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Yankeerose00

First of all, you need to calm down, Seriously. You are the one getting worked up.

You haven't seen me "worked up" yet. Last I checked, you're the one getting offended over the semantics of "suburb" vs. "sprawl." I didn't say it, you did.

And the people tired of battling I'm referring to are the people who gave me like 20 rep points within the first couple of days. I'm guessing they are lurking, reading and not wanting to jump in and debate because they are tired of it.

I got about about the same amount of rep points, not that it proves much or means anything. People have a way of doing that with people who agree with them.

How old are you? Just wondering.

I am. for the time being, still in the highly coveted demographic of males aged 18-35. Consider me on the older end of that scale.

And they were facing the speculators and builders who had the town in their back pocket. It was like facing a giant.

So that begs the question - do you stand in the giant's way or do you just get out of the way? If we're expected to just get out of the way then we're done for as a democracy.