[arel]

Originally Posted by flu189

Lets keep us rural, there is plenty of opportunity for all special people and special programs just to the south of us. I am amazed on all the folks that are attracted to Vt for it's "lifestyle" and then want to import all of the extras from the areas they are leaving.

I can relate to that wish. I am ambivalent about change. I want to have my cake and eat it, too.

I guess I'm a VerYorker, looking for the best combination of urban and rural qualities.

But I try to be realistic. I was amazed to read of the town bus in Brattleboro. But if I move up there, I don't plan to advocate for a subway.

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by arel

I can relate to that wish. I am ambivalent about change. I want to have my cake and eat it, too.

I guess I'm a VerYorker, looking for the best combination of urban and rural qualities.

The thing is, there is no combination of rural and urban. They ARE mutually exclusive. What is great about rural is that it is NOT urban.

[arel]

First of all, I was pretty much joking. Well, maybe partially joking.

But rural and urban are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Look at rural bedroom communities around Burlington. Look at rural towns around Brattleboro, or at Brattleboro itself. Rural setting, with some urban amenities.

There is a vast middle ground between the city and the wilderness.

[chaz longue]

Dare I utter the dreaded "S word" ?

...nah.

[chaz longue]

Fascinating post. I'm scratching my head over the description of VT as "remote", but perhaps that's just a matter of perspective.

When I moved to VT in 1961 there were more cows than people in the state. Really.

Now - You I can fly to NYC for a hundred bucks, in an hour and 15 minutes. You can fly to Burlington from SFO with one stop (My parents live in Santa Rosa, CA). I drive to Montreal in little more than an hour and a half.

We have more people than cows now, too.
I'm not sure we're "remote" any more, which is a mixed blessing I suppose...

Originally Posted by buckfush

Wow, Vermont. I don't think I've ever heard anyone make this request before about a state that is almost as non-existent as North Dakota. If you're considering such a remote location, in a state that is overwhelmingly white, does it matter what others think? You are more likely going to be around people who are not used to multi-racial families. They won't be used to seeing them, some maybe many won't approve. It may be hard for you and your husband to make friends. You kids will be treated differently because the parents of the kids they play with are more likely not used to interracial families.

I would first take a trip there with the entire family and spend a couple weeks there to get the feel of the place. Hire a realtor, get out and be seen. Go to church. Both you are your husband find a place to get your hair cut, go shopping, visit the schools, take walks. You will discover the answers to your questions this way.

Good luck. I too have an interracial family, and I simply don't want to be in a rural environment or one that is ignorant. My wife and I are professionals as well and we like nice things. We want few distractions for our great kids. We've settled on the fact that the places that we choose to live are probably going to be on the high end and probably not that much of a mixture of races. After all, when you work hard to gain high achievement, you can live where you want and these places are probably going to be inhabited by high-achieving people, people who want the dame for their kids as you do yours.

No specific info on Burlington, I know. Just some observations. Interested in what you find out. Good luck.

[arel]

Originally Posted by chaz longue

Dare I utter the dreaded "S word" ?

...nah.

Suburb?

Suburbs are not usually rural, even though they may be in a "country" setting. Maybe I overstated my case. But what does "rural" mean? I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, or keyboard, as it were, but if you confine "rural" to farmland and wilderness, what does it mean to live in rural town? What does it mean to live in the "country"?

I'm not trying to split hairs. But I'm not sure the issue is black and white, either/or. It's a continuum.

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by arel

Suburb?

Suburbs are not usually rural, even though they may be in a "country" setting. Maybe I overstated my case. But what does "rural" mean? I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, or keyboard, as it were, but if you confine "rural" to farmland and wilderness, what does it mean to live in rural town? What does it mean to live in the "country"?

I'm not trying to split hairs. But I'm not sure the issue is black and white, either/or. It's a continuum.

Here's the Wiki definition:
Rural areas (also referred to as "the country", countryside) are sparsely settled places away from the influence of large cities. Such areas are distinct from more intensively settled urban and suburban areas, and also from unsettled lands such as outback, American Old West or wilderness. Inhabitants live in villages, hamlets, on farms and in other isolated houses.

To my mind, rural means self sufficient. A clearly defined town, that does not spill over into another town. For instance when you leave one town, you have to travel to get to another town. Clear distinctions.

Rural means that you have a local school system, that people know each other or know of each other. That everyone is interconnected in some way. That everyone knows your business. i used to think that was a bad thing; but now I think otherwise. Anonymity is not a good thing.

Rural to me means that you depend on people around you, not the government. It means you take responsibility for yourself, first and foremost.

Suburbs, such as the bedroom communities around Burlington, have traffic, stoplights, commuters, and no real village center. People will just as soon run to Burlington or go to the mall in South Burlington. It's like suburbia anywhere else, albeit the houses are on bigger tracts of land. Unfortunately, in those area the time honored rural traditions are disappearing-hunting, shooting, freedom to do what you want on your own land.

Rural and wilderness are not interchangeable.

[arel]

OK, Lilybeans. Now I have more clarity on the matter.

Bear with me. I'm from Brooklyn.

[DestinationVermont]

I appreciate the conversation on rural vs. urban and whether they are mutually exclusive or there are more blurred essences. Many of us from the urban world look at rural life as undeveloped, backwards, simple, close-minded -- not my words, you know, but that's what some of the city folk here say. I also have heard how those in so-called rural communities see urbanites as anonymous, consumer-driven, too political, self-righteous. All negatives indeed.

I am trying to better understand what arel poses as the key for me: finding the best of both worlds, since obviously we cannot go back to any purist, romanticized notions of either the idyllic rural "live off the land," neighborly lifestyle or the sophisticated, cultured, technologically cutting-edge environment of the cosmopolitan sphere. Both classifications (by the way, I don't know if I can relate to much of what wikipedia has to claim as an authority on anything) tend to create static, "black and white" notions that can't change, which therefore, means we as individuals don't change, which is ludicrous and inhuman.

Maybe the rural-urban discussion is not what we're talking about here. I get concerned when we as an advanced society talk about communities as being open-minded to different kinds of people on the one hand, yet hear examples of "we are this way and that's the way it is" -- which is it? If it is rooted in being rural as close-minded and urban as open-minded, then maybe the answer on whether arel or i or anyone should move is self-evident. But, I personally don't think it is that simple an answer.

I have seen how aspects of urban life exist quite publicly in Vermont like highways, racial/ethnic diversity, ATMs, internet communications systems and the computers we are using to talk here (whether agreed or not, they are there). I also have seen and lived among many examples of genuine community-based relationships, people caring for each other, natural environmental beauty, etc. in several urban centers.

I want to hear as it is, because many of us (who can afford it!) are coming, if not tomorrow, definitely soon. While we like a lot of where we live, we also dislike the traffic, the congestion, the noise.

And in Vermont, we will live in Burlington and join the community meetings, have conversations at the market, participate in the schools, bring our diversity, and new ideas. I am philosophically opposed to SUVs, believe in student-centered public education and parental involvement, work to achieve justice so all in our society can participate, and think there are not enough readers in the world and too many who care more about American Idol over post-Katrina renewal or challenging systematic racism (sorry, don't mean to offend -- just a commentary on our own kids and their classmates). We believe in responsive government, but do not have strong ideologically driven leanings and we have friends of many political persuasions. We also think Bush and his family groupies have failed us locally, nationally, and internationally in too many ways.

I want to know if there is room for me in Vermont because I can not be a respectable human in this world and not freely bring who I am to society...and to be completely transparent: no one should.

So, to me it is not only about rural or urban. In many ways, that discussion is an afterthought. If we follow the conventional, static definitions, we are all more urban than ever want to admit and a lot less rural than we will ever be again. I think what I am really asking is what kind of community am I going to find waiting for me in Burlington? And, are there multiracial communities with whom we can connect? And, I would presume that the notions of community I see in Burlington would look different from those in other parts of the state? I am looking to hear how it really is.

Thanks again for all of your many thoughts!

[Lilybeans]

Originally Posted by DestinationVermont

I
Maybe the rural-urban discussion is not what we're talking about here. I get concerned when we as an advanced society talk about communities as being open-minded to different kinds of people on the one hand, yet hear examples of "we are this way and that's the way it is" -- which is it?

I think rural communities will accept anyone-provided you try to fit in, and not try to turn the place you move to into the place you came from. If you try to change the place into where you came from, forget it, you'll hate it.

I also think that it takes time to be accepted in rural communities, and for many of us, we will never be natives or considered natives. Just the way it is.

That is not to say people aren't nice or friendly or welcoming. They are. But you have to accept their ways, not the reverse. Just my opinion, of course.