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So I did some research and found some interesting results.
On an upcoming court day, May 6, the Greensville District Court hears traffic cases for Greensville county officers. I tracked the cases for one particular officer I'm not fond of (the one who cited me last year).
Well, over his 2 weeks of his police work that court date should cover, he wrote over 100 tickets for various things; I am focusing on the 63 speeding tickets he wrote for people driving in a 70 mph zone, which I gather has to be I-95.
That's 63 speeding tickets on I-95 over something like 10 days of work. He found time in his surveillance of the county to write an average of six speeding tickets a day on I-95. That's about one every 90 minutes. That doesn't include I-95 DUIs, radar detector tickets, broken headlight tickets, or anything else not involving I-95 traffic. Not proof of anything too underhanded, mind you, but a demonstrated focus on I-95 and speeding tickets.
But what of those 63 tickets?
The range of speeds was intriguing. One poor soul got written up for only 8 miles over the limit (he had a radar detector charge too). 13 more for 9 mph too much, and 24 tickets for 10 mph over. That's the majority of his tickets for 10 or less over the limit. Again, not a severe injustice, as even 1 mph is still technically speeding, so using 8 or 9 as a minimum trigger for writing a ticket is at worst poor discretion possibly as ordered by his boss. Beyond 10 mph the speeds he wrote the remaining 25 tickets for range from 11 to nearly 30 mph over.
Then it gets interesting.
Of the 63 tickets, 57 were from out-of-state drivers, as the court's web page tells you in the detailed records. That's over 90% of the cited drivers. I find it VERY hard to believe that less than 10% of the speeders (as defined by the officer's own 8-9 mph over the limit standard) on I-95 in southern Virginia are Virginians. My own (crude) measurements are that the Virginia drivers are a bit more likely to speed than others on that stretch of road. For what it's worth the pattern of non-Virginia states made sense; East Coast states dominated with NC by far the most common. There were something like 5 tickets for Quebec drivers, maybe just a quirk there.
And it gets more interesting.
Of the 6 Virginians cited, 5 were black. So only one white Virginian appears in a group of 63 ticketed drivers in southern Virginia. I came across the race trend by accident while searching for the statehood trend. The non-Virginians were more mixed in terms of race, as I remember off the top of my head.
So those are some intriguing numbers for one cop on one court day in Greensville. There appears to be a trend of tickets being handed out based on state residency and maybe even race. I think I'd see the same statehood trend if I searched over more court dates and all Greensville Co. officers. The race thing is more nefarious and better as an attention-getter to whomever I might complain to.
And then that's my question to anyone reading this far. What next? Keep compiling numbers? Write some big newspaper like the Richmond Times? Complain to the Virginia member of Congress in that area? Or in the areas of NC that get hit the most? Maybe take it up with the Virginia legislature?
The statehood complaint figures to fall on deaf ears to Virginia leaders. So that's why I think Congress is the place to start. I see congressmen being better at getting the Department of Justice interested in something like this that I could be myself.
The race issue though, that might be worth bringing up in Virginia. I had a nice chat with a Virginia senator over my previous complaint who did a good job of convincing me they're trying to get the law right (this was about the Move Over Law - a long rant there).
And then there's the media angle. Where to start? Newspapers, radio, TV? And what size market?
Any suggestions would be welcome. I'm just a guy with a car and an internet connection, but in principle, that should be enough.
BTW in Virginia, a speed of 81 or more is reckless driving, even if the speed limit is 70. Reckless driving is also x mph over the speed limit, and x may be 20.
What an incredibly awful contrived bunch of garbage this thread is.
Check out these impassioned complaints. Do they not sound similar? Check out the user names and number of posts. Notice any correlations?
It's simple. If you speed in Virginia and are caught, you pay a fine. No lackey lawyer trying to drum up business in a clumsy way online will provide you with a better deal than paying the fine.
To reiterate- all the garbage you've read in this thread was written by a lawyer and/or law firm trying to drum up business from Virginians and out of state drivers who have been ticketed for driving offenses.
What an incredibly awful contrived bunch of garbage this thread is.
Check out these impassioned complaints. Do they not sound similar? Check out the user names and number of posts. Notice any correlations?
It's simple. If you speed in Virginia and are caught, you pay a fine. No lackey lawyer trying to drum up business in a clumsy way online will provide you with a better deal than paying the fine.
To reiterate- all the garbage you've read in this thread was written by a lawyer and/or law firm trying to drum up business from Virginians and out of state drivers who have been ticketed for driving offenses.
Be safe out there.
twiceasugly, I assure you I am not a lawyer or affiliated with a law firm in any way. I would be skeptical about many of these claims myself if I hadn't seen an officer from Greensville County drive recklessly and nearly kill my whole family, then follow up with a false citation he must have known was false, then appear in court and make multiple material false statements about the false citation. I personally witnessed an officer commit a series of crimes. Filing false reports and making false statements under oath are significant crimes, much more serious than driving 9 mph over the limit on the highway.
You say a lawyer can't get you a better deal. That's not true. A simple search of the court files shows you that almost anyone accused of reckless driving - often a speeding offense for as little as 11 mph over the limit - gets the charge knocked down to something innocuous like "defective speedometer" and no criminal penalties. Perhaps you were referring to the fines, which generally don't get reduced. For a simple speeding ticket, 10 mph or less over the limit, it probably does not pay to hire a lawyer, unless your point situation is dire.
And it's not simple, that speeding gets you a ticket as you say. I suggest you check back in a few weeks and see if I've posted more about the Greensville tickets. It just may convince you that white Virginians get a pass from some officers in Greensville. And that's a serious offense in and of itself.
I hope you take the time to reflect on my post above.
Out-of-state driver here, ticketed on I-95 for going 9 mph over the speed limit. I have been inundated with letters and mailers from VA traffic attorneys; my favorite the "Emporia Special $199!!!!". This is a total scam. My father got it in the same stretch of road coming home from Florida earlier this year. Same deal with him. Just pay the fine and use I-81 to get to the beach next time; points don't transfer to our home state. Oh...and after I got ticketed, I saw all kinds of VA plates speeding past me, lol.
Take the alternate route (I think it's I-295) out around Richmond next time. It stinks; I got a speeding ticket in Emporia for going 9 mph over the speed limit, but you just pay it. It's easiest and points don't transfer anyway. Just think of it as contributing to the economy and keeping people employed. And don't go through Richmond anymore!
The range of speeds was intriguing. One poor soul got written up for only 8 miles over the limit (he had a radar detector charge too). 13 more for 9 mph too much, and 24 tickets for 10 mph over. That's the majority of his tickets for 10 or less over the limit. Again, not a severe injustice, as even 1 mph is still technically speeding, so using 8 or 9 as a minimum trigger for writing a ticket is at worst poor discretion possibly as ordered by his boss. Beyond 10 mph the speeds he wrote the remaining 25 tickets for range from 11 to nearly 30 mph over.
~In my opinion anything 5 over the limit is worth a ticket. If the speed limit in that section was 70, then the slowest driver to get a ticket would have been doing almost 80 mph! These are interstates, not racetracks or the autobahn which is specifically built for faster speeds. The drivers in Germany also know how to handle the speeds and obey the laws of the autobahn. US drivers are stubborn, selfish and reckless when it comes to obeying the laws of the road. Seriously, 70 or 75 mph really isn't fast enough? Taking my max 5 over limit into consideration.
Of the 63 tickets, 57 were from out-of-state drivers, as the court's web page tells you in the detailed records. That's over 90% of the cited drivers. I find it VERY hard to believe that less than 10% of the speeders (as defined by the officer's own 8-9 mph over the limit standard) on I-95 in southern Virginia are Virginians. My own (crude) measurements are that the Virginia drivers are a bit more likely to speed than others on that stretch of road. For what it's worth the pattern of non-Virginia states made sense; East Coast states dominated with NC by far the most common. There were something like 5 tickets for Quebec drivers, maybe just a quirk there.
~Of course this stretch will be dominated by other east coast states. I-95 runs up and down the entire length of the east coast. And North Carolina is literally a few miles from Emporia, so more tickets from them. Also the locals will most likely know about the increased enforcement since there are signs apparently all over that warn of it, and will naturally know the speed traps and avoid them.
Of the 6 Virginians cited, 5 were black. So only one white Virginian appears in a group of 63 ticketed drivers in southern Virginia. I came across the race trend by accident while searching for the statehood trend. The non-Virginians were more mixed in terms of race, as I remember off the top of my head.
~This area of VA is heavily black. I would say it's close to 50/50. So hence more tickets among blacks. But if that were the case, what about all the out of state drivers. Wouldn't the trend also be with majority black out of state drivers too? This just sound like someone trying to stir up trouble to me.
So those are some intriguing numbers for one cop on one court day in Greensville. There appears to be a trend of tickets being handed out based on state residency and maybe even race. I think I'd see the same statehood trend if I searched over more court dates and all Greensville Co. officers. The race thing is more nefarious and better as an attention-getter to whomever I might complain to.
~For the politically correct crowd maybe, but if you were going 1 mph over, ridiculous as it sounds, you can legally be cited. I don't think any judge will take those numbers seriously. I'm curious what the black police officers in the area feel about this subject.
And then that's my question to anyone reading this far. What next? Keep compiling numbers? Write some big newspaper like the Richmond Times? Complain to the Virginia member of Congress in that area? Or in the areas of NC that get hit the most? Maybe take it up with the Virginia legislature?
~I'll tell you what I do when I drive through there, I set my cruise at the posted speed limit and keep my eyes peeled for any traffic enforcement, then slow down slightly below the limit to be sure if I see any. Slowing down is absolutely not going to make you get to your destination any later. Maybe a few minutes. But certainly not as late as having to stop for a speeding violation.
The statehood complaint figures to fall on deaf ears to Virginia leaders. So that's why I think Congress is the place to start. I see congressmen being better at getting the Department of Justice interested in something like this that I could be myself.
~Money from tickets go to support other state funded things. Good luck!
The race issue though, that might be worth bringing up in Virginia. I had a nice chat with a Virginia senator over my previous complaint who did a good job of convincing me they're trying to get the law right (this was about the Move Over Law - a long rant there).
~The race issue is like throwing a rock at a bees nest. You know it's there, but bringing it up is only going to stir up a lot of emotions and not much else will get done. Don't look up just VA, but all other states where there is a good mix of black, white, and latino. I'd put money down that you will be sorely troubled by the results. But you can refer to my comment just above as to why the numbers might appear skewed in this area. For the move over law, I have no problem with it. I think it should be applied to any and all vehicles on the shoulder who may have a flat or car trouble. I've been broken down on the shoulder before and it's no fun wondering if you could get run over at any time by a careless dumb driver, no matter how aware you are. I sincerely have no clue why anyone would think this is a bad thing.
And then there's the media angle. Where to start? Newspapers, radio, TV? And what size market?
~If you wanted to stir up trouble, by the way most everyone I know is aware of this speed trap area, Emporia is close to the Richmond and Hampton Roads metros. That's close to 3 million people. Both areas have their own TV stations(NBC, ABC, CBS) and newspapers;Richmond Times Dispatch and Virginian Pilot.
BTW in Virginia, a speed of 81 or more is reckless driving, even if the speed limit is 70. Reckless driving is also x mph over the speed limit, and x may be 20.
~Again, these roads are not racetracks and cars are not planes. I don't know what the problem is. It just sounds like people are unhappy they got a ticket and want to whine and complain instead of manning up. Speed limits are set according to population density, if it's going through a town or city, and how much traffic is using it and how many cars are merging onto and off of exits. Just because the are looks desolate from the road doesn't mean there isn't a big subdivision or shopping center on the other side of the trees. VA is not a desolate unpopulated state, we're either the 14 or 15th most populous out of 50, and 16 or 17th most densely populated. Hence the seemingly slower speed limits. Theres a reason states like Wyoming, Montana and Oklahoma have much higher speed limits.
I got a ticket on 58 near Emporia, VA in August of 2007. Today my boyfriend got one as well. They claimed he was doing 75 in a 60. But, had his cruise control set at 65 and other cars were passing him. I tried to fight this Emporia corruption 4 yrs ago. I don't know what else to do. When I legislative member at the state capital, I will remember this when Emporia wants funding for a project.
ShadowBat, I think you missed the main point of my posts. If the Greensville police were simply writing a lot of speeding tickets, IMO showing poor discretion and fleecing out of state drivers, I wouldn't bother posting. Alone, that's not that big a deal.
But I have seen firsthand a representative of that department commit what sure seem to be crimes that dwarf the severity of minor traffic violations. And I've done some checking and see several trends that, if true, should each be very disturbing to every citizen.
I have firsthand seen an officer write a citation for a serious offense - a traffic misdemeanor comparable to a DWI - when he clearly knew the charge was false. I've watched that same officer drive recklessly - unrelated to the above or any other citation. I have also heard that same officer confidently testify under oath to the validity of that citation and in support of which, he made a whopper of a false statement of fact.
I'm no lawyer but deliberately making false statements in court while under oath is supposed to be perjury, a felony in most courts. And reckless driving in Virginia is a misdemeanor. Deliberately filing a false citation has got to be a serious offense too, probably a misdemeanor at least.
That's a series of three crimes, and we're just getting started. (I'm omitting numerous, more minor complaints here.) I realize that to you I'm just some guy on the internet and you have to take the FACTS I mention with a grain of salt, but you can agree that these charges - if true - merit MUCH more concern than drivers going a few miles over the 5 mph bogey you mentioned, can't you?
Let's continue with that one charge, pertaining to the other two branches of government which are supposed to provide checks and balances. I've seen the district court system deliberately railroad the case. I asked a lot of friends including a police officer from another state what traffic court is like, and was consistently told that while courts are all a little different, the defendant always gets a chance to argue his case and interview witnesses against him. Not in my trial. The judge let the cop talk all he wanted without interrupting him, then asked me a few questions - interrupting me frequently - then sternly lectured me and ruled. There was no chance to cross examine the officer and expose his false testimony (which would have been easy - long story), nor any other chance to argue the defense. The judicial ethics board cited the 'considerable latitude' afforded a judge in waving off my ethics complaint against him. The US Constitution guarantees the right to interview an accuser in court; this was a judicial travesty, and it is surely not an isolated example.
Then the third brach, the legislature, is perhaps the least deficient but still lacking here. The Move Over Law in Virginia at the time made it a CRIME to simply drive past an police officer on the shoulder if he has his lights on. Why? I've done quite a bit of checking and I assure you there is no significant number or upward trend in roadside fatalities of police or other highway workers. But the police union wanted another law to beat up on people and the legislators gave it to them. The argument for the law is not based on honest statistics but videos of crying widows and serene homages to fallen officers who died from unrelated events. There are many ethical problems with this law. In my case the officer lied about the possibility to safely move over but he didn't need to in order to 'prove' his case. He merely had to say he 'felt' that I was going too fast in the lane adjacent to him. That's right, there's NO speed specified as acceptable in the Virginia law (other states DO specify, usually x mph below the speed limit) so even if you drive by at 1 mph on a crowded interstate your speed can be argued as too fast by a dirty cop, and an unaccountable judge can rubber stamp the conviction. Imagine the police having the authority to *set* the general speed limit as they walk up to your window; do you want to live in that world?
So checking up on the few records a non-Virginian can check (public records requests can only come from Virginians!) I see so many speeding tickets, and distributions based on residency and race, that I suspect more violations of federal law are going on. A previous poster mentioned, and I recall hearing in court, that the JUDGE sternly warns everyone at the start of traffic court that the cops calibrate their radar guns every day at the station, and that calibration arguments against speeding tickets face an uphill fight. You may not know that daily calibration of a radar gun is inadequate, and the judge should not only know that but also should refrain from aiding and abetting the police in making shoddy arguments.
>~In my opinion anything 5 over the limit is worth a ticket. If the speed limit in that section was 70, then the slowest driver to get a ticket would have been doing almost 80 mph! ...Seriously, 70 or 75 mph really isn't fast enough? Taking my max 5 over limit into consideration. You've overlooked something. You don't state any reason WHY the limit is set as it is. I don't believe you have one. The limit used to be 55, then 65, now 70 in the Emporia area. Where's your report of increased accidents or fatalities? Or a traffic engineering report suggesting a lower minimum? The 55 limit was obviously set for politcal objectives, how do you know 70 is the correct stopping spot? And do you really think 11 mph over the limit, whether or not worthy of a ticket, is fairly called a CRIME? A very similar road in terms of lanes, spacing, visibility, and traffic volume is the Northwest Corridor (may not be the exact name) connecting the Denver suburbs to the airport. That's a much more populous region than southern Virginia. Lots of residences are visible within a few hundred feet of the Denver road. And yet the speed limit is 75 mph with many drivers exceeding 80 mph and there is no scourge of accidents there. I don't believe you can explain why. Oh, the Denver highway is also not called a racetrack and the cars there are not called planes despite your other comment.
>~I'll tell you what I do when I drive through there, I set my cruise at the posted speed limit and keep my eyes peeled for any traffic enforcement, then slow down slightly below the limit to be sure if I see any. Slowing down is absolutely not going to make you get to your destination any later. Maybe a few minutes. But certainly not as late as having to stop for a speeding violation. I just tried that recently. It wasn't safe. I set my cruise (checked w/ my GPS) to just a hair under the speed limit, and counted the cars and license plates I encountered. The vast majority, and 100% of the Virginians, sped past me. Cops were present, suggesting the locals *don't* all know about the traps. At times my speed of 69 was not safe, as faster traffic accumulated behind me, and those folks had to do a lot of lane changes in close quarters in order to pass me. It would have been worse had I tapped my breaks at the sight of officers as you suggested. Past the county line, I sped up, and resumed safe driving. Ticket avoided.
>For the move over law, I have no problem with it. I think it should be applied to any and all vehicles on the shoulder who may have a flat or car trouble. But it doesn't - part of the reason it's a bad law - because the powers that be don't value a civilian's life anywhere near that of a state worker's life. That, even though a cop at least has the power to arrest someone for vehicular assault and a civilian doesn't. If you had to hurriedly change lanes every time you passed a car on the shoulder, the accidents caused by Move Over would be too frequent for state highway to departments to keep ignoring them.
>I've been broken down on the shoulder before and it's no fun wondering if you could get run over at any time by a careless dumb driver, no matter how aware you are. I sincerely have no clue why anyone would think this is a bad thing. How about because people should avoid jobs when they don't like the job description? I didn't like walking on a highway last time I did it, and I assure you careless dumb drivers bother me too, but if I had the ability to arrest anyone who veered off the road I walk on, that would help. Maybe cops don't have it so bad.
>~It just sounds like people are unhappy they got a ticket and want to whine and complain instead of manning up. Manning up is something we should all do. And it means taking responsibility for one's actions as well as EXPECTING THE SAME OF OTHERS. And it means taking seriously your civic duties, which include casting informed ballots on Election Day and FIGHTING silly traffic tickets when the government doesn't have a legit case. State workers have legal and ethical responsibilities and should be held accountable for their wrongdoing. But most state employees enjoy a shielding law that protects them from personal liability for any crime they commit while conducting their duties. I say 'manning up' suggests eliminating such shield laws; how about you?
Ok, I'll give. If Emporia is doing what you say they are, and it appears from what you say, they are then that is constitutionally wrong. And something should be done. But the argument as to why speed limits should be higher is still weak. All states above VA to the best of my knowledge have limits at 65 or it's lower in a urban area. Why not also increase theirs too? Based on your reasoning, there should be no set speed limit at all, because how do you know what is an appropriate limit when a state has a higher limit in a bigger city and a smaller area does not. But I still stick to my opinion that speed limits are not and should not be based on how safe cars are, but rather on how populated an area is and how many exits/onramps and flow of traffic. Emporia is on probably the most heavily trafficked interstate in the country, so out of state traffic is mixing with local traffic and that has to be taken into account.
Just because the state "values" the police more than the civilians they are mandated to protect does not mean that they should be put at risk any more than anyone else. The law, as I stated earlier should be applied to everyone on the side of the road. And if you can't move over, then slow down!
Also, just because the job description entails being on the side of the road, does not mean that they should be put in any further danger. For example. An electrician knows that electricity can kill. Does he let that stop him from doing his job? Or does he work without proper equipment? No.
But in the end, I agree that if this is indeed a scam, it needs to end. But we are supposed to live in a civilized country, and obeying set laws, even if they seem absurd, is something we need to do. Without some of those laws anarchy would set in. And driving would be chaotic. To be honest, I'm more irritated at reckless drivers than I am at speeders. At least if you're a good driver, you can handle driving fast. But unfortunately, many people do not drive well, and for that we all pay.
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Some Revealing Greensville Figures
