Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: Standing outside of heaven, wating for God to come and get me.
1,382 posts, read 3,721,278 times
Reputation: 537
Advertisements
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1
I knew this argument was coming. Everytime somebody mentions socioeconomic status being due to a privileged background, someone always counters with "i didn't have nothing growing up, i did this through hard work, and I made it!!"
Heartbreak Kid, i dont know you personally so I cant judge you. But people who come from unprivileged backgrounds and make it to a privileged state are the Exception, not the Rule. Even if everybody was hardworking as you say you are, there are only so many high paying jobs to go around; somebody is going to lose. And the nature of our capitalist system today is that there are a minority of winners in the economic game, and a majority of losers.
Again, im not saying you didnt put in any work to get to where you are, but that "anybody can do it" philosophy is something I dont agree with. Thats something politicians say to keep the ever increasing number of walmart workers from rebelling against the system.
I won't argue with this. I accepted a long time ago that there were winners and losers in the system. I figured that if I got a degree, waited on kids, waited on marriage and focused on my career that I could become a winner. I am not there yet but I am determined to win. Lol, did I mention that I was a black male. So yes, a black male from a small,rural ,poor town in Southern Mississippi can make something of himself in Washington DC.
Trust, I understand what you mean about privilege. I look at some of my peers who came from those backgrounds and I am amazed. However, I do believe that if I keep grinding, I can catch them eventually.
I won't argue with this. I accepted a long time ago that there were winners and losers in the system. I figured that if I got a degree, waited on kids, waited on marriage and focused on my career that I could become a winner. I am not there yet but I am determined to win. Lol, did I mention that I was a black male. So yes, a black male from a small,rural ,poor town in Southern Mississippi can make something of himself in Washington DC.
Trust, I understand what you mean about privilege. I look at some of my peers who came from those backgrounds and I am amazed. However, I do believe that if I keep grinding, I can catch them eventually.
One good thing I can say about the system is that it does give one an opportunity to compete. If you grew up poor and didnt have money for college, there are loans available to you. And even if you dont make the highest grades in school to meet some of the criterion for government jobs, you could always join the military (if you're willing) to get that veterans preference.
DC is no different from any big world class American city in that fact that DC, proper, is pretty much completely devoid of a middle class. Anybody who isn't dirt poor in DC, NYC, LA or SF usually doesn't send their children to public school because city public schools are notorious for extremely poor quality of education, overcrowding, overwhelmingly high dropout rates, inter-gang violence etc. Y'know, stuff that upper middle class White people never see or experience on a personal level. Public schools with metal detectors are for poor minorities in the inner city. Despite the fact that DC is about a third White in demographics, over 95% of DC's public school population consists of Black or Latino students:
This pretty much tells you the truth that there are virtually no middle class or working class Whites in DC and that Whites are highly segregated from the public school system that is mostly reserved for downtrodden Black and Brown folks who have no other options.
The wealth gap between rich and poor has widened in the past 30 years. I did not grow up rich by any means. I grew up middle class in a very ghetto area San Francisco that rivals Southeast DC in the 80's and early 90's. My parents sent me to private school because the public school in our neighborhood was a poor excuse for an institution filled with chemical babies, rival gangs, teenage mothers and drug dealers.
Since the wealth gap is even wider today, the wealthy in big cities often choose to send their kids to the priciest private schools available. DC is all about status, money and those who do not have it. It's a rampant unavoidable mentality out here. Either you are a wealthy White person of well-birth who has attended private school since kindergarten, attended elite universities and has a high paying job doing next to nothing living in Northwest DC, Bethesda or Potomac or you are a disenfranchised Black person born into the grips of social disorganization, open drug dealing and hard drug use, regularity of scary street violence and civic neglect in the ghetto areas in the highly unemployed Northeast and Southeast quadrants of DC or in the equally crime-ridden bordering communities in PG County. This is no different from most big cities. A spoiled entitled armchair class of snooty wealthy Whites surrounded by a large seething unemployed Black underclass with few opportunities in the big city.
Last edited by goldenchild08; 06-18-2012 at 01:51 PM..
That was me who made the $300K comment. I should clarify.
I made it in the context of the persons post - it wasn't explicit in her question but she was basically asking how much money should would need without having to adjust her lifestyle (as she put it, shopping, lots of travel, etc). Plus, I was being intentionally obscene in my figure because, frankly, she didnt seem remotely ready to have kids, so I threw in things like private school just to inflate the figure. One other important note, I included the nanny because I presumed they would both work. I would agree that having a nanny with a one income family is pretty crazy (but there are many who do!)
So the way I got to $300k was as follows:
Take their current standard of living at $150K and add:
+Nanny is going to cost $3000+ a month, or daycare at about $1500 per kid will get you to the same answer for 2 kids (perhaps a bit less)... (Again, this only makes sense if both people are working and you have 2 kids)
+Private school, which for many in DC is considered a must, is roughly $25-30K a year per kid. +529 plans, if you plan to fund them, which you should, is another $10K a year per kid.
+Plus various other things like clothes, food, medical, bigger condo, double vacation costs, etc
Add that all up and you get to about $115K after tax, so call it $150K before tax.
And bingo, $300K. Hence my comment that if $150K single, $300K with kids. But that implies no change in lifestyle. I appreciate that probably wasn't clear in my original post....
These people do exist though, I know a few... you see lots of DC residents sending 2 kids to private, dropping them off in some lexus.... those folks are blowing $100k a year on their kids without breaking a sweat. To be clear, I dont think you NEED $300K a year to raise a kid, I think you can probably manage ok on 1/3rd that and be just fine (with a few sacrifices).
I don't think its crazy to ask the question if you can afford kids on a $150K salary (at least not in DC), nor do I think its crazy (as one other poster suggested) to want to max out 401k, save for college, eat healthy and be able to afford a vacation somewhere once a year as a family. That lifestyle might not be "middle class", but it should be. None of those things strike me as unreasonable or particularly luxurious aspirations. If anything I think its sad that our economy has reached a point where quality food, education and retirement aren't middle class.
$10K per year per kid for a 529 college savings program?? I know you said you intentionally inflated your numbers to make a point, but this figure doesn't even pass the laugh test.
$180K for college per kid? Not in your wildest dreams is that necessary for 99.9% of kids/parents in America.
Agreed...I'm always baffled by the argument of "it can be done on $X! I know someone who does!". Just cause it can be done, doesn't mean people *want* to... Sure, I could move to some far suburb out in Culpeper or something, commute two hours each way in wrist-slitting traffic, raise my kids in a 1 bedroom condo, save nothing for retirement or college, never take a vacation to something more exotic than the local public pool and probably do it all on $45K a year, but that's not the life I want.
I want to be able to enjoy my retirement... (I think most people don't come close to saving anywhere near enough, 10% is a pittance - but this is a different subject); I don't necessarily want to pay for my kids college education in its entirety, but I do want to be able to help so they don't graduate with crippling amounts of debt. I don't want to buy my kids a BMW on their 16th birthday, but I would like to be able to give them an old car when they go off to college or help them get a loan of their own when time comes. I'd like my kids to experience other cultures and travel the world because these are enriching experiences, that quite frankly, are much easier to do when you are not married/working/have a mortgage. I'd like to be able to go to dinner with my wife and not have to worry about whether or not I can afford the salmon entree or a glass of wine, or worry that when my dishwasher breaks I cant afford a new one, I'd like to be able to make it home for dinner most nights of the week rather than stare at the dashboard of my car until the sun goes down. I doubt $80K a year in DC with 3 kids would come close to enabling most, or even some, of those goals.
To me, these aren't crazy aspirations or asburd luxuries.... I'm not looking to live in a 5,000 sq ft home or drive a maserati, or fly first class everywhere, or have a live-in cook and maid, or summer in the hamptons, or dress my kids from Saks, or buy them BMWs... I just want to afford my children an education, save for my own retirement and be able to spend time with my family.
I admire the people who manage with less, kudos to them for making it work, its an admirable challenge to raise three kids with any income, much less on $80K... but I don't look down on those who make more and knowingly question the cost of kids. If anything I think its sad that we are in a place where debating children despite having a six figure income is actually a reasonable question.
You have a really bad habit of construeing numbers to make your point. Why don't you talk reality for once and then perhaps those who come to this forum will come way feeling more informed?
DC is no different from any big world class American city in that fact that DC, proper, is pretty much completely devoid of a middle class. Anybody who isn't dirt poor in DC, NYC, LA or SF usually doesn't send their children to public school because city public schools are notorious for extremely poor quality of education, overcrowding, overwhelmingly high dropout rates, inter-gang violence etc. Y'know, stuff that upper middle class White people never see or experience on a personal level. Public schools with metal detectors are for poor minorities in the inner city. Despite the fact that DC is about a third White in demographics, over 95% of DC's public school population consists of Black or Latino students:
This pretty much tells you the truth that there are virtually no middle class or working class Whites in DC and that Whites are highly segregated from the public school system that is mostly reserved for downtrodden Black and Brown folks who have no other options.
The wealth gap between rich and poor has widened in the past 30 years. I did not grow up rich by any means. I grew up middle class in a very ghetto area San Francisco that rivals Southeast DC in the 80's and early 90's. My parents sent me to private school because the public school in our neighborhood was a poor excuse for an institution filled with chemical babies, rival gangs, teenage mothers and drug dealers.
Since the wealth gap is even wider today, the wealthy in big cities often choose to send their kids to the priciest private schools available. DC is all about status, money and those who do not have it. It's a rampant unavoidable mentality out here. Either you are a wealthy White person of well-birth who has attended private school since kindergarten, attended elite universities and has a high paying job doing next to nothing living in Northwest DC, Bethesda or Potomac or you are a disenfranchised Black person born into the grips of social disorganization, open drug dealing and hard drug use, regularity of scary street violence and civic neglect in the ghetto areas in the highly unemployed Northeast and Southeast quadrants of DC or in the equally crime-ridden bordering communities in PG County. This is no different from most big cities. A spoiled entitled armchair class of snooty wealthy Whites surrounded by a large seething unemployed Black underclass with few opportunities in the big city.
It seems to me that:
1. You could have cities with more of a middle/working class than DC that still have very segregated public schools, if more of the middle/working class students attend less expensive private schools (i.e., parochial schools, Hebrew day schools, etc.) that don't cost as much as St. Albans or Sidwell Friends.
2. The public school segregation discussed in the Cato study really only speaks to the situation in urban school districts. It doesn't discuss the considerable integration in many suburban school districts (which is sometimes met by DC sub-forum posters not with "jee, it's nice that so many suburban schools are well-integrated" but with some variation of "haha, poor people are moving to the suburbs").
3. Working in a high-paying job in DC does not entail doing "next to nothing," simply because it primarily requires mental, rather than physical, exercise.
"Wealth" in DC means something like 630K/household per year at the low end. That stat came out right before I moved out of town. So a HH income of $140K falls far far below what it means to be wealthy. It boggles the mind, but its true.
I made what I considered to be a very decent living during my time in DC and there was NO WAY I could have afforded to raise a kid, let alone buy a house and have a kid. I might have afforded the studio condo I rented had the owners not wanted to sell it at 2005 prices. I am not a spendthrift, nor would my theoretical child need the best of everything, but growing up in a 500 sq ft studio was not really my idea of providing a great environment.
People *DO* raise kids on far less in the city-- you bet they do. I am not saying that it can't be done. But I understand the question the OP raised. I certainly wasn't willing to have a family in DC, nor was I interested in moving to the burbs to do it. There are lots of places in the country where you can do a lot more with a lot less. I left for one.
Location: Standing outside of heaven, wating for God to come and get me.
1,382 posts, read 3,721,278 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchild08
DC is no different from any big world class American city in that fact that DC, proper, is pretty much completely devoid of a middle class. Anybody who isn't dirt poor in DC, NYC, LA or SF usually doesn't send their children to public school because city public schools are notorious for extremely poor quality of education, overcrowding, overwhelmingly high dropout rates, inter-gang violence etc. Y'know, stuff that upper middle class White people never see or experience on a personal level. Public schools with metal detectors are for poor minorities in the inner city. Despite the fact that DC is about a third White in demographics, over 95% of DC's public school population consists of Black or Latino students:
This pretty much tells you the truth that there are virtually no middle class or working class Whites in DC and that Whites are highly segregated from the public school system that is mostly reserved for downtrodden Black and Brown folks who have no other options.
The wealth gap between rich and poor has widened in the past 30 years. I did not grow up rich by any means. I grew up middle class in a very ghetto area San Francisco that rivals Southeast DC in the 80's and early 90's. My parents sent me to private school because the public school in our neighborhood was a poor excuse for an institution filled with chemical babies, rival gangs, teenage mothers and drug dealers.
Since the wealth gap is even wider today, the wealthy in big cities often choose to send their kids to the priciest private schools available. DC is all about status, money and those who do not have it. It's a rampant unavoidable mentality out here. Either you are a wealthy White person of well-birth who has attended private school since kindergarten, attended elite universities and has a high paying job doing next to nothing living in Northwest DC, Bethesda or Potomac or you are a disenfranchised Black person born into the grips of social disorganization, open drug dealing and hard drug use, regularity of scary street violence and civic neglect in the ghetto areas in the highly unemployed Northeast and Southeast quadrants of DC or in the equally crime-ridden bordering communities in PG County. This is no different from most big cities. A spoiled entitled armchair class of snooty wealthy Whites surrounded by a large seething unemployed Black underclass with few opportunities in the big city.
What DC do you live in? I know a hell of a lot of black middle class people. I interact with black middle class people everyday. I am a black middle classian.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. Everytime somebody mentions socioeconomic status being due to a privileged background, someone always counters with "i didn't have nothing growing up, i did this through hard work, and I made it!!"
