DDOT: DC Street Car May Never Open.......$190 MILLION Potentially Down the Drain! (Washington: costs, safety)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There is no one that claimed it was the most innovative thing in urban transit. I suspect you can't find those cheerleaders because you just made them up.
There has been a tremendous amount of development along the H Street corridor, and developers and business-owners alike have made the decision to invest there at least partially because of the promise of the streetcar. If you don't believe anything included in the economic development impact report, then you'll just have to take the businesses/developers word for it because they have stated as much publicly. In that regard it has already realized marked success.
H Street was gonna gentrify anyway. Georgia Ave north of Petworth station only has 2 bus lines......didnt stop that area from gentrifying.
Quote:
If public infrastructure projects had less wherewithal than the mercurial rantings of their critics, then not one single road would be paved in the United States. Fortunately that is not the case, and I suspect even this streetcar, problems withstanding, will be around longer than most criticisms (even the New Orleans streetcar plows into the occasional car; there will always be some complaints).
The next step in this process is not the death of the streetcar, which is purely the editorial rhetoric of the day. I watched the DDOT hearing; that was not the thrust of the comments. Dormsjo was just making a point that they're doing a holistic evaluation and he wasn't (officially) pre-eliminating any options. The next step is making a decision on how to move forward based on the findings of a report being conducted by the American Public Transportation Association. Just a reality check - there is less than a 0% chance that APTA recommends scrapping the project. APTA is a pro-public transportation organization.
As I said before, I suspect they'll need to cut the curb back or eliminate some H street parking to accommodate more clearance for the car. The safety issues are engineering problems that will be ironed out. Ultimately, this initial leg of the streetcar will fully open to the public, and the furor of the problems will die down.
An expansion of the streetcar system may be put off for years because of the political liabilities caused by the poor execution of this first segment. Ultimately, transportation capacity pressures are going to force more investment in permanent public transportation infrastructure. I'd be surprised if an expanded streetcar system was not part of that investment.
[/quote]
Infrastructure projects like these tend to have highly publicized bumps in the road. In most cases theyre worth it bc theres a greater good and a problem being solved by building these things. Great examples are the Big Dig, Robert moses gutting NYC for interstates and highways, the train tunnel connecting england to france, etc.
Trolley on H Street? what in the almighty fukkkk for? There was already buses there. Several of them. As i said before if there was trackwork laid all the way down the original intended route there could be a vague justification. But as it stands now, common sense ( i know this is a foreign concept in with many DC city and trasnport planners, let alone the CD boards) will scream at you that this project either needs new management and serious redesign, or it just needs to be scrapped. You dont need sophisticated reports to point that out.
I'd be surprised if an expanded streetcar system was not part of that investment.
I'd be surprised if it is part of that investment. I didn't think there'd be much appetite for expansion even if all had gone according to plan. DDOT's ineptitude has only made things worse.
Instead of building a very expensive streetcar network, I'd opt for Bus Only Lanes. They work in New York because they actually enforce them. If you cross into a bus lane for only a few seconds, you should expect to receive a $100 ticket in the mail.
Again, no one says that the streetcar is the most innovative thing in urban transit. MDallstar doesn't even come close to saying that. In a few of his posts he isn't even complimentary of adding streetcars to some areas. You're making up a fake hyperbolic argument so that you can argue against that instead of addressing what people have actually said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
H Street was gonna gentrify anyway.
Was it? How much? When? Would it be at the 25 businesses/yr clip that the H street corridor has seen the past 24 months? What happens to those developments that said they would not move forward sans streetcar? What about the businesses who have explicitly said that the streetcar was part of their decision-making process to locate on H street?
H Street might as well been Guam from a permanent public transportation perspective. Its development has been significantly assisted by a major investment in permanent public transportation indicating to both developers and consumers that it won't always be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
Georgia Ave north of Petworth station only has 2 bus lines......didnt stop that area from gentrifying.
I live one block off of Georgia Ave. It's not H street. It's got patches of development. In Petworth it has a metro stop to anchor it. Do you think ANY of that development would have occurred surrounding the Petworth stop if it were not served by permanent transportation infrastructure? No way.
I think the North-South line will actually provide significant utility and economic benefit for a commercial corridor that has struggled outside of the immediate proximity of the metro stops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
Infrastructure projects like these tend to have highly publicized bumps in the road. In most cases theyre worth it bc theres a greater good and a problem being solved by building these things. Great examples are the Big Dig, Robert moses gutting NYC for interstates and highways, the train tunnel connecting england to france, etc.
You're talking about projects several orders of magnitude larger than a very initial investment in a streetcar line/system? If DC were to build out the entire 22 mile system, those would still be an order of magnitude larger. So if you're going to compare return on investment, lets take into consideration the amount of the investment and the realities of comparing a pilot project to a full roll-out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
Trolley on H Street? what in the almighty fukkkk for? There was already buses there. Several of them.
The case has already been made at length, and repeatedly, on this board and in public reports. I would refer you to the same thread that you referred me to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
As i said before if there was trackwork laid all the way down the original intended route there could be a vague justification. But as it stands now, common sense ( i know this is a foreign concept in with many DC city and trasnport planners, let alone the CD boards) will scream at you that this project either needs new management and serious redesign, or it just needs to be scrapped. You dont need sophisticated reports to point that out.
So that you can avoid saying it again, let it finally sink in that this part of the project was always an initial investment. Therefor you aren't going to reap the benefits of a fully implemented system, so lets stop being surprised. From the beginning the promise of the H street line was 1)economic development, 2)an initial investment in a larger interconnected streetcar system, 3) a pilot for testing out DC streetcars (and learn from successes and failures, which they clearly are) and 4) to provide public transportation for the H street corridor over its limited run in the short/medium term.
If you deny the economic impact that the streetcar has had already, not only are you ignoring 'sophisticated reports', you are also denying very clear statements from commercial investors in the corridor.
From the beginning, the so-called 'cheerleaders' that were discussing the benefits of a streetcar, and some of the drawbacks of this design. MDAllstar, your identified cheerleader, talked about the need dedicated right-of-ways etc.
Certainly my assessment hasn't changed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
H Street wasn't the highest need area for the street car from a transportation perspective. It also didn't offer the best curb-to-curb configuration to accommodate a street car. But it's not the beginning and end of the DC streetcar; it's a initial investment that was welcomed by far more than 'one developer'.
The "initial investment" was not even designed to have much utility. When people asked what the usefulness of a 2.2 mile line that stops short of Union Station is, the response was "So what?" The goal here wasn't really to improve transit in DC, but instead to have a streetcar. Transportation was clearly a secondary consideration in the larger context of things.
I don't think it makes much sense to talk about expansion at this point. As Jarrett Walker noted on his blog:
Quote:
The streetcar has been extended up to the limits of usefulness for such a slow-by-design service (about 3.5 miles). But there are no serious proposals for taking cars out of its lanes for enough distance to matter, nor is there much energy behind extensions. Why?
In Portland, support for streetcar spending has collapsed.A recent Bureau of Transportation poll found that only 38% of Portland residents would assign a more-than-neutral priority to further expansions of the streetcar. The same number for more frequent bus service is 67%. (Light rail, in exclusive lanes by definition, is at 59%)
I don't see why DC would be any different from Portland. As some of the commenters stated, Portland has scrapped most of its other streetcar expansion proposals. Streetcars simply aren't very useful from a mobility perspective. It's hard to justify funneling scarce transit dollars into projects that provide little in the way of transportation improvements.
The "initial investment" was not even designed to have much utility. When people asked what the usefulness of a 2.2 mile line that stops short of Union Station is, the response was "So what?" The goal here wasn't really to improve transit in DC, but instead to have a streetcar. Transportation was clearly a secondary consideration in the larger context of things.
Secondary? I had it as the 4th consideration, and the larger context of things has more to do with its value than just the rail that had been laid to-date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't see why DC would be any different from Portland.
I think our traffic congestion, our employment/residence ratio and the need to take stress off of our rapid transit infrastructure is different from Portland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
As some of the commenters stated, Portland has scrapped most of its other streetcar expansion proposals. Streetcars simply aren't very useful from a mobility perspective. It's hard to justify funneling scarce transit dollars into projects that provide little in the way of transportation improvements.
The start up capital and improvements over bus service is one part of the discussion. You simply can't have the rest of it without also discussing the economic development impact that permanent infrastructure has. You also can't have it without discussing the lower operational costs. You also can't have it without discussing whether or not people elect to take public transportation more or less depending on mode. Does a streetcar attract more infrequent riders? Does it incent different patterns of ridership; like short-trip rides? You also can't have the discussion without talking about the relationship between transportation choices of residents moving into new residential developments anchored, at least in some part, by permanent transportation infrastructure.
I also think it's a bad idea to have the conversation in terms of streetcars replacing bus service in some sort of zero sum game. In most (all?) cities I'm aware of, the streetcar is used to compliment bus service in a multi-layered transit system.
Secondary? I had it as the 4th consideration, and the larger context of things has more to do with its value than just the rail that had been laid to-date.
And that's likely why the city now has a line that has no independent utility. When you don't design transit projects with the actual transportation of people as the main priority, then you get sub-optimal transit results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
I think our traffic congestion, our employment/residence ratio and the need to take stress off of our rapid transit infrastructure is different from Portland.
The point is that streetcar support collapsed. It has by far garnered the least popular support among all modes (even though Portland is touted as a model of success by streetcar boosters). I don't see why support for the streetcar would skyrocket all of a sudden, particularly since government officials are now entertaining notions of scrapping the initial line altogether. How are we going to go from "H Street line may be scrapped" to "DC will likely invest in more streetcar expansion"?
I'm willing to bet that DC starts taking a much closer look at what cities like New York and Sydney are doing with their buses. It's a much cheaper and faster way to move people. And if the mode of service that's selected is ultimately viewed as sort of a "stopgap" until demand for heavy rail service exists, then you're better off choosing the cheaper alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
The start up capital and improvements over bus service is one part of the discussion. You simply can't have the rest of it without also discussing the economic development impact that permanent infrastructure has.
That's true. You also can't have it without discussing the impact streetcar costs have on the rest of the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
You also can't have it without discussing the lower operational costs.
Why do people always assume the operational costs will be lower? Yes, a streetcar has greater capacity than a bus, but running streetcars at the same headways requires the same number of operators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
You also can't have it without discussing whether or not people elect to take public transportation more or less depending on mode. Does a streetcar attract more infrequent riders? Does it incent different patterns of ridership; like short-trip rides? You also can't have the discussion without talking about the relationship between transportation choices of residents moving into new residential developments anchored, at least in some part, by permanent transportation infrastructure.
I think there's been so much written about this by folks like Matt Yglesias, Daniel Hertz, Alon Levy and Jarrett Walker that it's not worth rehashing. I will say that in a DC specific context, mode doesn't really matter. DC has the most affluent bus ridership in the country. And in cities with very dense central business districts where parking is expensive, transit ridership is more a matter of practical decision making than it is preference. In cities like Atlanta or Dallas, the decision to ride transit is likely influenced by preference to a greater degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KStreetQB
I also think it's a bad idea to have the conversation in terms of streetcars replacing bus service in some sort of zero sum game. In most (all?) cities I'm aware of, the streetcar is used to compliment bus service in a multi-layered transit system.
I didn't say that. I just question why anyone would want mixed-traffic streetcars at all (and so have many other professional transit planners). They have no added mobility benefits over buses, which most boosters concede.
So if the H Street Line gets scrapped, will streetcar supporters still believe it was worth it (considering the new condos, stores, etc.)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter2219
H Street was gonna gentrify anyway. Georgia Ave north of Petworth station only has 2 bus lines......didnt stop that area from gentrifying.
I think you can cherrypick examples from either side. It is likely that Petworth wouldn't have seen that development without Metro. But then you have developers pressing hard to build at McMillan without any type of real transportation plan in sight.
In H Street's case, I think it would have happened anyway given its proximity to Union Station/Capitol Hill/CBD, but it's not clear if development would have taken place at the same rate.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 03-11-2015 at 12:37 PM..
And that's likely why the city now has a line that has no independent utility.
Characterizing it as having no independent utility prior to taking on its first passenger is premature, even if you're just defining utility in the narrow terms of transit alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
When you don't design transit projects with the actual transportation of people as the main priority, then you get sub-optimal transit results.
That's a non sequitur; you could get sub-optimal results or optimal results. Balancing multiple priorities on a project is not a zero sum game where one must be sacrificed for the other. They can be competing, complementary or totally independent of each other, and if you're replacing bus service along a corridor with marginal transit improvements, but billions in spurred development, transit may not be the main priority when both are weighed.
I don't know why this point continually gets ignored, but I don't think I've seen anyone say that the H Street Corridor was the highest-need area from a transit perspective. I also don't think I've seen any supporters of the project indicate that this initial investment should be the final and only investment. It has been overwhelmingly characterized as an initial investment, with benefits that extend beyond the added transit alone.
So when people come at this project with the one-dimensional criticism about marginal returns on transit improvement (which we still don't know, given that it hasn't opened yet), it baffles me that they don't recognize that the scope of expected returns was never that limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
The point is that streetcar support collapsed. It has by far garnered the least popular support among all modes (even though Portland is touted as a model of success by streetcar boosters).
Given that ridership is up 300,000 in the past year, it's expanding in September and the Mayor just doubled down on support, I don't think that "streetcar support collapsed" is telling the whole story behind the Portland streetcar.
They are going through the same growing pains that any major infrastructure expansion experiences. People complaining about hitches in the system plays out in real time, the success of these projects play out in years and decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't see why support for the streetcar would skyrocket all of a sudden, particularly since government officials are now entertaining notions of scrapping the initial line altogether. How are we going to go from "H Street line may be scrapped" to "DC will likely invest in more streetcar expansion"?
I don't think support will skyrocket, I think the swell of opposition will gradually wane, and when it does, we'll still be tackling the same issues that made it seem like trying out streetcars was a good idea in the first place.
They're not scrapping the line. I refer to my earlier comments about the hearing and the upcoming APTA recommendations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I'm willing to bet that DC starts taking a much closer look at what cities like New York and Sydney are doing with their buses. It's a much cheaper and faster way to move people. And if the mode of service that's selected is ultimately viewed as sort of a "stopgap" until demand for heavy rail service exists, then you're better off choosing the cheaper alternative.
I think they'll do all of that, in addition to the streetcar. The scope of the transportation challenges we'll face over the next 25 years will require a multimodal approach on a massive scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
That's true. You also can't have it without discussing the impact streetcar costs have on the rest of the system.
That's fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Why do people always assume the operational costs will be lower? Yes, a streetcar has greater capacity than a bus, but running streetcars at the same headways requires the same number of operators.
Same number of operators, carrying more passengers per operator, on infrastructure that last 4x+ as long as a bus, with a more cost-predictable energy source. While you are discounting streetcars attracting more riders than a bus, and different types of riders than a bus, I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I think there's been so much written about this by folks like Matt Yglesias, Daniel Hertz, Alon Levy and Jarrett Walker that it's not worth rehashing.
Yes, on both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I will say that in a DC specific context, mode doesn't really matter. DC has the most affluent bus ridership in the country. And in cities with very dense central business districts where parking is expensive, transit ridership is more a matter of practical decision making than it is preference. In cities like Atlanta or Dallas, the decision to ride transit is likely influenced by preference to a greater degree.
I disagree that mode doesn't matter when it comes to consumer choices in DC. I agree that we have a better culture than many cities, but we're a more transit-oriented city generally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I didn't say that. I just question why anyone would want mixed-traffic streetcars at all (and so have many other professional transit planners). They have no added mobility benefits over buses, which most boosters concede.
I think most boosters talk about higher ridership per mile, and that you need to project a moderate increase in ridership when planning a streetcar replacement of a bus line.
If the city had connected the streetcar to a metro station (Stadium-Armory, Minnesota Ave or Benning Road) on both ends then the streetcar project might've had a better chance.
If the city had connected the streetcar to a metro station (Stadium-Armory, Minnesota Ave or Benning Road) on both ends then the streetcar project might've had a better chance.
I think they just need to finish the line to georgetown. it was planned to stretch through k street into georgetown & that would have been so helpful. all i want is for the city to allocate money to finish the line & then they can give up on the system
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
