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Turpan, China is very close to meeting Trewartha's 8 months over 10C criteria (1971-2000 data) and probably fully meets it with the slight warming if one were to use 1981-2010 data. It has very hot summers which with irrigation should be able to grow plenty of warmth loving plants but also has below freezing winters with an average low of -12C in January. Should it be considered subtropical?
Versus say Eureka, CA which also technically just barely meets Trewartha's criteria of 8 months over 10C, is cool the whole year and can grow many subtropical plants like Canary Island Date Palms and Norfolk Island Pines.
It is arid with hard freezing winters, both of which exclude it from that category IMO.
I don't like Trewartha's system btw. I like the good old Koppen which makes a lot more sense - the way I see it, a subtropical climate, especially the Cf/Cw type (i.e. not mediterranean climates), should be exactly what it's called: subtropical, i.e. one step down from true tropical climates, with the same summer heat & humidity but with coolish, never cold, winters; Hong Kong or Tokyo being fine examples.
So, a place like Turpan with a -12°C average low (that's colder than Moscow!), no matter how hot its summer is, can never fit into that category, not even talking about aridity.
Eureka doesn't fit either with its pathetic, wimpy summers
It is arid with hard freezing winters, both of which exclude it from that category IMO.
I don't like Trewartha's system btw. I like the good old Koppen which makes a lot more sense - the way I see it, a subtropical climate, especially the Cf/Cw type (i.e. not mediterranean climates), should be exactly what it's called: subtropical, i.e. one step down from true tropical climates, with the same summer heat & humidity but with coolish, never cold, winters; Hong Kong or Tokyo being fine examples.
So, a place like Turpan with a -12°C average low (that's colder than Moscow!), no matter how hot its summer is, can never fit into that category, not even talking about aridity.
Eureka doesn't fit either with its pathetic, wimpy summers
So my answer is neither
Makes sense.. I don't really think either are subtropical either .... but I was trying to determine how many people feel hot summers or mild winters were more more important in determining subtropical climates, as there seems to be both points of view on this forum. I tried to think of two extreme examples. For me, winter mildness is the #1 factor and always will be regardless of summer heat. Eureka to me is by far much closer to a subtropical climate despite the fact that summers are more than 20C cooler than Turpan.
I agree with Dhdh. Koeppen got it right the first time . Of the two choices, both of them are quite removed from subtropical classification, but I'd say Eureka is closer to it than Turpan is.
Turpan would be a Dfa climate if it wasn't so dry, and Eureka is a Csb climate, so at least Eureka is in group C (temperate/subtropical) as opposed to a completely different climate group. Between the two I think more "subtropical plants" would be able to stand the cool summers than the subfreezing winters of Turpan, and the native vegetation of Eureka is probably closer to the subtropics than the native vegetation of a forested Turpan-type climate.
Although I think the Trewartha system is inferior, it still intrigues me that Turpan almost meets his subtropical criteria, something I hardly expected. The average for March, the clincher month required to have 8 months, is 49.6F, so it's very close in any case. I think the 1971-2000 normals better reflect the true long-term climate than the 1981-2010 normals, since the former was taken in part of a cold period and part of a warm period and the latter was taken in the full cycle of a warm period. Nevertheless, it is likely that Turpan has warmed a little bit in March so that it does meet Trewartha subtropical temperature criteria .
If so it would beat out some East Asian spots to be by far the coldest winter climate that is subtropical per Trewartha. And I thought 's dream climate was extreme in this regard .
Since I'm not familiar with Trewartha's system, am I right in saying that for "subtropical" climates, he only sets a requirement for a minimum of 8 months above 10C and does NOT set a temperature threshold for the coldest winter month (unlike Koepen's cut off point of -3C)?
Turpan would be a Dfa climate if it wasn't so dry, and Eureka is a Csb climate, so at least Eureka is in group C (temperate/subtropical) as opposed to a completely different climate group. Between the two I think more "subtropical plants" would be able to stand the cool summers than the subfreezing winters of Turpan, and the native vegetation of Eureka is probably closer to the subtropics than the native vegetation of a forested Turpan-type climate.
You have a point I didn't think about vegetation but clearly subtropical plants would tolerate the mild, wet (somehow) environment of Eureka.
By the way PM, which climate would you chose between both? Freezing winter and burning summer or no winter and no summer? Hard choice for you I presume.
You have a point I didn't think about vegetation but clearly subtropical plants would tolerate the mild, wet (somehow) environment of Eureka.
A lot of subtropical plants would have a hard time there (like, say, corn and tomatoes), but a lot of them would be able to grow there. Turpan could also host hardier subtropical plants if it didn't get below about -10F for the winter minimum (which is plausible), but between the two I think Eureka's temperatures would host more subtropical vegetation.
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By the way PM, which climate would you chose between both? Freezing winter and burning summer or no winter and no summer? Hard choice for you I presume.
It's hard enough of a choice to require more than 10 minutes of thought. I'm leaning towards Eureka but I'm not certain. It may make for an interesting climate battle, if it hasn't been done yet.
Turpan, China is very close to meeting Trewartha's 8 months over 10C criteria (1971-2000 data) and probably fully meets it with the slight warming if one were to use 1981-2010 data. It has very hot summers which with irrigation should be able to grow plenty of warmth loving plants but also has below freezing winters with an average low of -12C in January. Should it be considered subtropical?
Versus say Eureka, CA which also technically just barely meets Trewartha's criteria of 8 months over 10C, is cool the whole year and can grow many subtropical plants like Canary Island Date Palms and Norfolk Island Pines.
Interesting question. I personally don't see them as either. One more west coast marine, the other hot summer continental. I guess technically they both meet some sort of subtropical definition. I would have to say ever so slightly that Eureka would. As has been pointed out, winter warmth is present in Eureka with temps over 50F. Eureka does have subtropical plant growth present, but didn't look as subtropical to me as places I've been along the SE US coast (with colder winter low temps). Looked more PNW to me as I have been in Portland, OR. I didn't see any bougainvilleas in Eureka, but I saw them in Charleston.
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I didn't think about vegetation but clearly subtropical plants would tolerate the mild, wet (somehow) environment of Eureka. 