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Sabal Palmettos are shown as native to areas of coastal Georgia, like Brunswick, and Savannah, and yet both locations have dipped below 6F due to the 80s cold snap( 5 and 3 F, respectively).
coastal, not cold spots in airfields and/or 20 miles inland. Sabal populations at that latitude hug the coast or riverbanks (where record lows are probably around 9°F) and you probably don't see them naturally out by the airports. hence why we see populations expanding inland at around the ~29°N Gainesville, FL area southward where record lows are at and above 7°F. of course there are outliers just like in any scenario, but likely exist in microclimates. populations are fairly patchy and thin outside of the 7°F record low areas (which extend all the way up to coastal North Carolina).
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Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
They are very significant factors that influence such a range; bird routes, which are typically north-south, would mean an easier time for seeds to travel up Atlantic Coast, than west across Gulf. Also, the conveyor motion of the Gulf Stream would help to transport seeds more readily up Atlantic, unlike the Gulf, where the streams aren't as strong.
i don't know much about the affects of birds and currents on seed distribution so i can't really comment on this. you should really post a link to where you got this from.
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Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Yes, weather records may have gone on since 1892, but record extremes, again, could have started getting collected much later.
no, i just told you that record extremes began in 1892 for Federal Point. some of the record lows for different days mention years like 1899. records were definitely collected since 1892. Jacksonville airport record lows date back to 1871 with the lowest recorded temperature still being from 1985. obviously 1985 was colder for the east coast of Florida than 1899 was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
To the west of Daytona, unlike Galveston (where there it is huge landmass, is the Gulf of Mexico), meaning a large body of water to moderate the cold fronts coming before they reach the peninsula.
sure that might help a bit, but cold fronts come from the northwest, marching down from North Florida. The gulf of mexico does not help that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Even with such a handicap, Galveston still manages to retain warmer average lows than Daytona Beach, and with a period of record that includes the harshest of cold snaps in American history.
there is no handicap, Galveston is on an island, Daytona is not on an island and is 4 miles away from the coast. Galveston has more moderating affects manifesting in average low temperatures. Corpus Christi is much further south, with the airport being ~6 miles away from Corpus Christi Bay with an average January low of 47°F. honestly though, you are drawing attention away from the more obvious differences, like the average high and record lows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
Galveston, TX airport
100 feet inland? (Scholes Int'l) on an island...
~29.2°N Record Low: 8°F January Average High: 62°F
Daytona Beach, FL airport
4 miles inland
~29.2°N Record Low: 15°F January Average High: 68°F
Daytona Beach has a much higher average January high and a much higher record low than Galveston.
but fine, lets say that comparison is a bit murky, lets make the comparison as close as possible:
Alvin, TX
~20 miles inland
~29.4°N Record Low: 8°F from 1989 (since 1903) January Average High/Low: 62°F/42°F
Crescent City, FL
~20 miles inland
~29.4°N Record Low: 14°F from 1983 (since 1912) January Average High/Low: 67°F/46°F
warmer across the board.
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-14-2015 at 01:17 PM..
North/south ocean currents and bird migration rates definitely affect naturalization of plants. I once walked to the end of Cape Hatteras, NC and saw a dead coconut palm washed ashore, likely carried by the gulf stream. While that plant couldnt naturalize in NC it can help naturalize others. Birds have a huge affect on plants in the area by eating seeds then crapping them out in fertilized crap which helps them grow.
Savannah ga airport has a low of 3F and Biloxi, MS is 10F. Both can easily grow several palms. I also believe if you look at the maps posted they do grow 20 miles inland. I like the theory that they all died back to Fl during the ice age and have been expanding.
Clay/mud soil is no friend of the palmetto, but apparently as was previously shown these there is a hybrid that grows naturally in LA and tx
North/south ocean currents and bird migration rates definitely affect naturalization of plants. I once walked to the end of Cape Hatteras, NC and saw a dead coconut palm washed ashore, likely carried by the gulf stream. While that plant couldnt naturalize in NC it can help naturalize others. Birds have a huge affect on plants in the area by eating seeds then crapping them out in fertilized crap which helps them grow.
that is interesting... it makes sense that birds and ocean currents played a role in the spreading of the Sabal northward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
Savannah ga airport has a low of 3F and Biloxi, MS is 10F. Both can easily grow several palms. I also believe if you look at the maps posted they do grow 20 miles inland. I like the theory that they all died back to Fl during the ice age and have been expanding.
Coden, AL at the coast has a record low of 1°F from 1985, and Mobile, AL airport has a low of -1°F from 1899. This shouldn't be dismissed.
I agree the map definitely highlights up to 20 miles inland in Georgia but this is likely for the riverbanks. Even in northern Florida most of the Sabal populations are near rivers. In my area the oldest and tallest specimens (which are likely over 100 years old) only live near the rivers like the intracoastal waterway.
I don't like the idea that they are expanding northward (maybe they have since the last ice age) but currently they are already living in their northern limit, at the cusp of the 7°F mark. again, these palms will get damaged and die with temperatures at or below 7°F so I don't see them expanding any further north. and I think areas like Coden, AL may have limited the Sabal from naturally reaching Louisiana. Of course in modern times people are planting them everywhere and surely they are on their way to naturalization throughout LA and TX. (i'm still somewhat baffled that there aren't any native populations in LA or TX but it seems to be the case).
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
Clay/mud soil is no friend of the palmetto, but apparently as was previously shown these there is a hybrid that grows naturally in LA and tx
everywhere I've read thus far says that the Sabal is highly adaptable in most types of soil, preferring "somewhat" sandy soil. The soil in coastal Alabama is still very sandy and apparently they are not native to that area.
coastal, not cold spots in airfields and/or 20 miles inland. Sabal populations at that latitude hug the coast or riverbanks (where record lows are probably around 9°F) and you probably don't see them naturally out by the airports. hence why we see populations expanding inland at around the ~29°N Gainesville, FL area southward where record lows are at and above 7°F. of course there are outliers just like in any scenario, but likely exist in microclimates. populations are fairly patchy and thin outside of the 7°F record low areas (which extend all the way up to coastal North Carolina).
i don't know much about the affects of birds and currents on seed distribution so i can't really comment on this. you should really post a link to where you got this from.
So would that not apply to areas along the Gulf as well? As in, are there not micro-climates along rivers, streams, etc where the palmettos could have survived in coastal Alabama?
no, i just told you that record extremes began in 1892 for Federal Point. some of the record lows for different days mention years like 1899. records were definitely collected since 1892. Jacksonville airport record lows date back to 1871 with the lowest recorded temperature still being from 1985. obviously 1985 was colder for the east coast of Florida than 1899 was.
sure that might help a bit, but cold fronts come from the northwest, marching down from North Florida. The gulf of mexico does not help that much.
there is no handicap, Galveston is on an island, Daytona is not on an island and is 4 miles away from the coast. Galveston has more moderating affects manifesting in average low temperatures. Corpus Christi is much further south, with the airport being ~6 miles away from Corpus Christi Bay with an average January low of 47°F. honestly though, you are drawing attention away from the more obvious differences, like the average high and record lows.
Daytona Beach has a much higher average January high and a much higher record low than Galveston.
but fine, lets say that comparison is a bit murky, lets make the comparison as close as possible:
Alvin, TX
~20 miles inland
~29.4°N Record Low: 8°F from 1989 (since 1903) January Average High/Low: 62°F/42°F
Crescent City, FL
~20 miles inland
~29.4°N Record Low: 14°F from 1983 (since 1912) January Average High/Low: 67°F/46°F
warmer across the board.
Expected, as Florida is on a peninsula, surrounded by water to the south, east, and west, with the western body of water being quite large, enough to moderate the cold fronts that come through significantly. Texas, on the other hand, would not be as moderated, especially in locations similar to latitude as the Florida locations, seeing as it has water only on one side, with the side being against the prevailing winds of weather fronts. You can't really compare Florida to other Gulf locations for too long before the peninsular effect kicks in.
So would that not apply to areas along the Gulf as well? As in, are there not micro-climates along rivers, streams, etc where the palmettos could have survived in coastal Alabama?
absolutely it would. i don't have all of the answers. its just that with places like Coden, AL seeing 1°F, it might have acted as a barrier preventing the Sabal from reaching Louisiana. coupled with the decreased rate of seeds spreading westward...
good find. they seem to be somewhat puzzled as well. do you know what the hardiness is of the Sabal Mexicana? I assume its the same as the Sabal Palmetto but I couldn't find anything...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Expected, as Florida is on a peninsula, surrounded by water to the south, east, and west, with the western body of water being quite large, enough to moderate the cold fronts that come through significantly. Texas, on the other hand, would not be as moderated, especially in locations similar to latitude as the Florida locations, seeing as it has water only on one side, with the side being against the prevailing winds of weather fronts. You can't really compare Florida to other Gulf locations for too long before the peninsular effect kicks in.
What part of that do you not understand?
right well just a few posts ago you were giving me an argument that the east coast of florida wasn't warmer than the east coast of texas at equivalent latitudes. Yes the Gulf of Mexico helps (more so for central and south Florida) and the gulf stream helps as well. also Texas is very exposed to cold fronts being in the south-central part of the continent. far reaching affects making its way all the way down to Tampico, Mexico 22°N with 29°F/-2°C. Tampico might be the lowest latitude location in the world to receive subfreezing temperatures at sea level.
anyway my point was to establish that the northeastern coast of Florida is warmer than the northeastern coast of Texas (at equivalent latitudes). Now that we are in agreement, lets change latitudes...
Of course places like New Orleans are warmer, i'm not comparing these! the goal is to address the record low of the northern fringe of the Sabal with the western fringe of the Sabal and finally with the inland fringe of the Sabal.
just to refresh your memory:
Northern Fringe: Hatteras, NC 35.2°N Average January Low: 39°F Record Low: 6°F from 1985 (since 1893)
Western Fringe: (illustrating possible "road-bumps" for the Sabal) Niceville, FL (50 miles west of St. Andrews Bay, 1 mile from Choctawhatchee Bay) 30.5°N Average January Low: 37°F Record Low: 4°F from 1985 (since 1937)
Coden, AL (less than a mile from the coast) 30.4°N Average January Low: 39°F Record Low: 1°F from 1985 (since 1956)
Inland Fringe: Mayo, FL (about 40 miles inland) 30.0°N Average January Low: 40°F Record Low: 7°F from 1985 (since 1949)
I understand there are a few interesting points to make... Brunswick, GA reporting 3°F etc.
honestly i'm not sure. i think this might be an area far from water or a rare cold spot. Savannah Int'l reports 3°F as well and that airport is 20 miles inland (and much further north than Brunswick). Brunswick Malcolm McKinnon airport, which is near the water, reports 6°F.
there are plenty of places north of Brunswick with higher record lows
such as Edisto Island, SC 7°F... Sullivan's Island, SC 7°F... etc.
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-15-2015 at 08:43 PM..
absolutely it would. i don't have all of the answers. its just that with places like Coden, AL seeing 1°F, it might have acted as a barrier preventing the Sabal from reaching Louisiana. coupled with the decreased rate of seed spreading westward...
Yes, but not all of coastal Alabama reached that temp; the areas that were still warm enough in the state could have easily served as a micro-climate haven for the palmettos as they make the journey west.
Thus, I don't really think that there is anything limiting the spread of the Sabal west in this contemporary climate period; the plants are already on their way to taking over the Gulf Coast. It's just a matter of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
good find. they seem to be somewhat puzzled as well. do you know what the hardiness is of the Sabal Mexicana? I assume its the same as the Sabal Palmetto but I couldn't find anything...
I believe the Mexicana is slightly less hardy than the Palmetto. I'll check again soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
right well just a few posts ago you were giving me an argument that the east coast of florida wasn't warmer than the east coast of texas at equivalent latitudes. Yes the Gulf of Mexico helps (more so for central and south Florida) and the gulf stream helps as well. also Texas is very exposed to cold fronts being in the south-central part of the continent. far reaching affects making its way all the way down to Tampico, Mexico 22°N with 29°F/-2°C. Tampico might be the lowest latitude location in the world to receive subfreezing temperatures at sea level.
anyway my point was to establish that the northeastern coast of Florida is warmer than the northeastern coast of Texas (at equivalent latitudes). Now that we are in agreement, lets change latitudes...
Actually, the argument incorporates both ideas, and it is that even with all the moderating benefits Florida receives as a peninsula, places in Florida like Daytona Beach still have cooler winter lows than certain areas of the Texas coast at similar latitudes, like Galveston. However, with the peninsular effect further South, such roles rapidly switch between the states.
Yes, but not all of coastal Alabama reached that temp; the areas that were still warm enough in the state could have easily served as a micro-climate haven for the palmettos as they make the journey west.
Thus, I don't really think that there is anything limiting the spread of the Sabal west in this contemporary climate period; the plants are already on their way to taking over the Gulf Coast. It's just a matter of time.
at that longitude of coastal Alabama the only place that would be warm enough would be the islands. and with the decreased rate of seeds spreading, it may have been difficult for the Sabal to reach Louisiana naturally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Actually, the argument incorporates both ideas, and it is that even with all the moderating benefits Florida receives as a peninsula, places in Florida like Daytona Beach still have cooler winter lows than certain areas of the Texas coast at similar latitudes, like Galveston. However, with the peninsular effect further South, such roles rapidly switch between the states.
Galveston is on an island! Daytona is not!
and even with the island moderation, Galveston still has a much lower record low!
and the roles never change, every location on the Florida peninsula (disregarding the panhandle) is warmer than Texas at equivalent latitudes and distances from the ocean (because of the various reasons described earlier). of course not a huge difference, especially when looking at averages, but definitely with record lows. they can't even grow coconut palms in South Padre Island 26°N... (they try, but they die)
I should have specified, I meant at sea level and near the ocean. Nanning is not near the ocean. Hong Kong's record low is 32°F/0°C with records from 1884. so I think Tampico (and a few areas just south of there) may still win. and of course a close second place is a location on the southern fringe of a large continent which means continental influence! see the similarities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Such cold only happened due to the Cold Epoch anyways, so lets not get carried away with it.
really so by that logic Hong Kong's record low only happened due to its Cold Epoch right? is the deep south and europe the only places that get these so called "cold epochs" in your eyes?
unless you meant Hong Kong's record low was because of its cold epoch. in which case, who cares? every place on the planet gets cold epochs. it doesn't make any place more or less special because of it
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 04-15-2015 at 09:35 PM..
at that longitude of coastal Alabama the only place that would be warm enough would be the islands. and with the decreased rate of seeds spreading, it may have been difficult for the Sabal to reach Louisiana naturally.
So you think there are not other microclimates other than islands in coastal Alabama that could have served as refuge for the palms during cold snaps in the state, assisting in their journey west?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
Galveston is on an island! Daytona is not!
and even with the island moderation, Galveston still has a much lower record low!
and the roles never change, every location on the Florida peninsula (disregarding the panhandle) is warmer than Texas at equivalent latitudes and distances from the ocean (because of the various reasons described earlier). of course not a huge difference, especially when looking at averages, but definitely with record lows. they can't even grow coconut palms in South Padre Island 26°N... (they try, but they die)
Galveston still doesn't have much separation from a huge landmass to the northwest, Florida at least has the luxury of being on a peninsula. Yet, Galveston still managed to record a warmer average min, and with more years of data too, with the inclusion of many cold snaps in the South (which were missed in Daytona due to the starting of weather records in the 1930s).
And coconuts are growing just fine in South Padre Island; they literally wash up from Mexico, and sprout on the beaches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
I should have specified, I meant at sea level and near the ocean. Nanning is not near the ocean. Hong Kong's record low is 32°F/0°C with records from 1884. so I think Tampico (and a few areas just south of there) may still win. and of course a close second place is a location on the southern fringe of a large continent which means continental influence! see the similarities?
The link includes Benhai, a coastal Asian city that is the record holder for lowest min temp at sea-level within tropics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Goosenseresworthie
really so by that logic Hong Kong's record low only happened due to its Cold Epoch right? is the deep south and europe the only places that get these so called "cold epochs" in your eyes?
unless you meant Hong Kong's record low was because of its cold epoch. in which case, who cares? every place on the planet gets cold epochs. it doesn't make any place more or less special because of it
So you think there are not other microclimates other than islands in coastal Alabama that could have served as refuge for the palms during cold snaps in the state, assisting in their journey west?
not at that longitude... you can even see it with the hardiness zone map, with 8b extending to the Alabama coast west of Mobile. 8b also extends to the coast at Fort Walton Beach, FL. Not that the hardiness zone in particular matters for the Sabal (it doesn't), but it helps illustrate the cold spots along the Gulf Coast, where record lows dip well below the Sabal's minimum temperature of 7°F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
Galveston still doesn't have much separation from a huge landmass to the northwest, Florida at least has the luxury of being on a peninsula. Yet, Galveston still managed to record a warmer average min, and with more years of data too, with the inclusion of many cold snaps in the South (which were missed in Daytona due to the starting of weather records in the 1930s).
go 20 miles inland of Galveston...
Alvin, TX Average January Low drops 6° from 48°F to 42°F.
go 20 miles inland of Daytona Beach...
Crescent City, FL Average January Low drops 1° from 47°F to 46°F.
Galveston has more moderating benefits than Daytona. If there was an island 4 miles off the coast of Daytona, it would probably read 50°F or 51°F as an Average January Low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
And coconuts are growing just fine in South Padre Island; they literally wash up from Mexico, and sprout on the beaches.
and then die when it drops down to 25°F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
The link includes Benhai, a coastal Asian city that is the record holder for lowest min temp at sea-level within tropics.
the lowest temperature recorded in Beihai was 35.6°F/2°C which is not as low as the 29°F/-2°C recorded by Tampico.
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