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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by Empidonax
You seriously don't understand what leftists (not just Dems) really stand for and work toward? Visit just about any leftist politician or candidate's webpage and do some reading.
Someone has to seriously be deep into only looking at far right "news" to not know universal healthcare, a liveable wage, a strong safety net, environmental and worker protections, a progressive tax structure, and an economic system where there is a chance at social mobility AND where the rank and file workers share in the gigantic increases in profits are the hall marks of progressive ideology. How someone in Wisconsin, once the home of progressive politics (which made the state great), can not know these things is pretty much not believable.
I may not live there now but did years ago. What you're REALLY talking about is 100% pure Socialism, which is well known does NOT work. The relentless desires to take from those that have something and giving it to those that don't is altruistic, but doesn't work in THIS part of the world. The U.S. was NEVER set up that way and I surely hope won't ever be. Sure, measures taken to see health care is kept somewhat affordable.......sure. The "livable" wage thing is more governed by supply and demand and what manufacturers you're dealing with. Increases in profit being distributed to workers....eh...can you say "unions"? Ironically they've all but killed a lot of American manufacturing. Say what you will the Demogogues at this point are about as trustworthy as a hungry grizzly in your midst and should be shot on sight.
I may not live there now but did years ago. What you're REALLY talking about is 100% pure Socialism, which is well known does NOT work. The relentless desires to take from those that have something and giving it to those that don't is altruistic, but doesn't work in THIS part of the world. The U.S. was NEVER set up that way and I surely hope won't ever be. Sure, measures taken to see health care is kept somewhat affordable.......sure. The "livable" wage thing is more governed by supply and demand and what manufacturers you're dealing with. Increases in profit being distributed to workers....eh...can you say "unions"? Ironically they've all but killed a lot of American manufacturing.
What Timberline outlined isn't necessarily socialism--at least, not true socialism. All of what he said can fit into a traditionally capitalist society that works for all sectors of society.
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Say what you will the Demogogues at this point are about as trustworthy as a hungry grizzly in your midst and should be shot on sight.
The Dems are more trustworthy than the Repugnicons.
People are losing health insurance due to the GOP neglect of the ACA. The deficit now is poised to skyrocket well above and beyond Obama's deficit. People who already have lots of money can make even more money that will not "trickle down." Negative attitudes about cities and "those people who live in them" have helped ongoing segregation trends in some areas. The conservatives' misunderstanding of science is, among other things, "making a difference" in promoting global warming. Conservative Christianity is making sure that more people think that Jesus rode dinosaurs way back when.
Yep, lots of great strides forward.
It's true that many on the left are "whining," but the conservatives are also. The left is just more vocal and visible about it. Conservatives tend to make themselves heard more on talk radio, Faux News, internet forums, and stuff like that.
Don't kid yourself: All of the whining that the cons did about Obama. All of the whining about creating a proper health care system in the U.S. All of the whining about gays and lesbians who just want to marry the people they love, or who want to buy a stupid cake. All of the whining about blacks and other minorities who raise their voices or take a knee. All of the whining about women who want to control their own bodies.
I love that you think there are a "few remaining leftists." If that's the case, then all of their "whining" shouldn't bother you so much.
In other words: "Even though you're black and have experiences that I will never be subjected to and that I will never be able to fathom, your experiences are not entirely valid, and racism isn't as bad as you think it is. I may not be black, but I certainly don't see so much racism, so get over it."
No, it won't be dead. More conservatives will stop listening, though.
I can't speak for Innovative, but to me, it isn't just about Trump being inarticulate.
It's about his divisive rhetoric, mocking people in public, childishly imitating them, and doing other things along these lines to appeal to the savage instincts of his base. Anyone who doesn't see this is in a bubble, isn't paying attention, or is dishonest.
Of course, for conservatives, not all of these things are "accomplishments." But for people on the left, there's a lot to celebrate.
Objectively, Trump has also had some accomplishments in his two years in office. He presided over two Supreme Court confirmations, a tax overhaul occurred under his watch, and he's given hope to millions of Christian evangelicals, dispossessed Middle America whites, and lots of "very fine people" in the Charlottesville, VA area.
Agreed.
You seriously don't understand what leftists (not just Dems) really stand for and work toward? Visit just about any leftist politician or candidate's webpage and do some reading.
good gawd - it NEVER STOPS with you people. The ACA did not help the majority. There are MILLIONS Of stories of people who had health insurance and lost it or were priced out when ACA went into effect. ACA was a gov't power grab pure and simple.
I believe I must read waaay more than you - yet you and Timberline like to claim all I must do is listen to FOX. Listen - there are weeks were I never turn on FOX or open their App. All one has to do is search out the truth even from the lefts own stories to see that leftist ideas where Gov't is the almighty solution to every ill on the planet is a false god.
I read the Obama 50 success story list months ago. But I reread it again since you brought it up. 10 are legitimate. 25-30 are pure opinion of author with no fact based result and rest are failures or dismal misapplication of resources that moved country in wrong direction.
I do laugh (or cry) at #50 about "No Scandals." Sure - according to leftist Obama apologists and the MSM, 1) weaponizing of the IRS and 2) ATF planting guns with Mexican gangs so people get killed hoping to invigorate a gun control debate are not scandals. I hope you would agree those were bad things and were definitely major "Scandals" that if done by an R administration would have gotten a lot more play time.
With regards to IA and his preoccupation with racism. It does not really matter what his "experiences" are when he is trying to sell his opinion. The only thing that matters is whether the reader buys in. My point was that he has made some very good statements for which an honest reader could contemplate; then he throws it away with the BS race card. That's too bad for him, not me. His message is lost.
ME TOO as a serious movement is now dead. It will be framed as political maneuver from now on. Sure some will be able to get naive college kids and ANTIFA types to march around like silly brainless zombies but the movement will no longer capture the country's attention and power mongers can more easily go back to abusing. That IS ON the Democrats.
I agree there was a lot of whining about Obama and if Hillary would have won, there would be a lot of whining about her. I guess that is our country. I am guilty of it.
Trump does speak to his base - that is true. I also think there are times he attempts to speak to the entire country and when he does, I have two observations: 1)he is not a great speaker and 2) some people just won't like him even if he said 100% things they agree with.
He does not care about what Democrats, MSM and mobs think about him. Past Presidents communicated from a more middle of the road perspective. However, to that point, I bet Trump would say: "Look what that got us." It's his style - right or wrong. Time will tell if that is a good strategy long term.
Thanks for pointing to lefty candidates for ideas. I admit that some do list stuff they care about. Almost all of it was not measurable and required more/bigger government intrusion into life. I doubt that needle would move much an any of it even after the 100's of billions they want to spend on everything would be spent.
good gawd - it NEVER STOPS with you people. The ACA did not help the majority. There are MILLIONS Of stories of people who had health insurance and lost it or were priced out when ACA went into effect. ACA was a gov't power grab pure and simple.
Yes, it does NEVER STOP with "us people." Too freakin' bad!
And the ACA, despite many problems, was very successful. Poll after poll after poll shows that a significant majority of Americans (including many red-state conservatives) have liked it, have viewed it favorably, and have benefited from it. In fact, if Obama had been able to run for a third term, he would have won handily--thanks, in some part, to the ACA.
The ACA has been so successful, in fact, that even conservative politicians have recently been talking about "replacing" the ACA with "something better." Before Obama, national health care was not even on the GOP radar. Now, they have to deal with it in some fashion, even if that means they'll water it down (which is what they would do).
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I believe I must read waaay more than you
Uh-oh, pi$$ing match! My books are better than yours!! You must read a ton, then. Kudos!
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- yet you and Timberline like to claim all I must do is listen to FOX. Listen - there are weeks were I never turn on FOX or open their App. All one has to do is search out the truth even from the lefts own stories to see that leftist ideas where Gov't is the almighty solution to every ill on the planet is a false god.
Actually, I never once accused you specifically of listening to FOX. Go back and take a look: I did say that "conservatives" use FOX ("Faux") as an outlet for venting, but I have no idea about your specific situation. In fact, if you've paid attention to my posts about you, I've considered you one of the more engaging and thoughtful people on this forum.
And, btw, most leftists in the U.S. do not believe that the Government "is the almighty solution to every ill on the planet." That's just hyperbole--you know, the thing that you accused Innovative of doing.
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I read the Obama 50 success story list months ago. But I reread it again since you brought it up. 10 are legitimate. 25-30 are pure opinion of author with no fact based result and rest are failures or dismal misapplication of resources that moved country in wrong direction.
Like I said, not all "successes" will be viewed as such by everyone. The same applies to all presidents, including 45.
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I do laugh (or cry) at #50 about "No Scandals." Sure - according to leftist Obama apologists and the MSM, 1) weaponizing of the IRS and 2) ATF planting guns with Mexican gangs so people get killed hoping to invigorate a gun control debate are not scandals. I hope you would agree those were bad things and were definitely major "Scandals" that if done by an R administration would have gotten a lot more play time.
If you dig deeply and massage words really well, you can find a lot more "scandals," I'm sure.
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With regards to IA and his preoccupation with racism. It does not really matter what his "experiences" are when he is trying to sell his opinion. The only thing that matters is whether the reader buys in. My point was that he has made some very good statements for which an honest reader could contemplate; then he throws it away with the BS race card. That's too bad for him, not me. His message is lost.
That may be true, but most of us do that. You've done that in your posts, and I've done that in mine. So what? That's why we read--we look for the stuff that we can respond to, and we skip the other stuff. No one on here is going to be 100% rational and logical all of the time. Such is the nature of opinions.
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ME TOO as a serious movement is now dead. It will be framed as political maneuver from now on. Sure some will be able to get naive college kids and ANTIFA types to march around like silly brainless zombies but the movement will no longer capture the country's attention and power mongers can more easily go back to abusing. That IS ON the Democrats.
It really isn't dead. According to various polls I've read, a majority of respondents found Blasey-Ford to be credible, even in spite of the Dems' handling of the case.
But don't forget that nearly all Dems and nearly all Republicans made up their minds about Kavanaugh before the Blasey-Ford thing even happened.
Some people may see "Me Too" as dead because of this, but others see "Me Too" as more important than ever. The Republicans made it clear that they didn't take Blasey-Ford's accusations very seriously: the FBI investigation was a nice start, but was very limited in scope and had an artificial timeline. The GOP authorized the investigation for show, not because they wanted to understand Kavanaugh better.
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I agree there was a lot of whining about Obama and if Hillary would have won, there would be a lot of whining about her. I guess that is our country. I am guilty of it.
It's nothing new under the sun--we are just people, after all.
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Trump does speak to his base - that is true. I also think there are times he attempts to speak to the entire country and when he does, I have two observations: 1)he is not a great speaker and 2) some people just won't like him even if he said 100% things they agree with.
I agree on all accounts.
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He does not care about what Democrats, MSM and mobs think about him. Past Presidents communicated from a more middle of the road perspective. However, to that point, I bet Trump would say: "Look what that got us." It's his style - right or wrong. Time will tell if that is a good strategy long term.
His style certainly breaks with the country's most recent traditions (past 100 years or so), but it probably fits squarely within the tradition of populist pols such as Andrew Jackson and some of the provincial/territorial governors of the early 19th century.
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Thanks for pointing to lefty candidates for ideas. I admit that some do list stuff they care about. Almost all of it was not measurable and required more/bigger government intrusion into life. I doubt that needle would move much an any of it even after the 100's of billions they want to spend on everything would be spent.
Most pols don't list measurable specifics on their webpages--they're propaganda documents intended to provide a thumbnail and accessible idea of positions and ideology.
And it's interesting you allude to the "tax-and-spend" reputation of Dems/leftists. That is indeed something they're known for, but Republicans before the Goldwater and Reagan eras did not always shy away from tax-and-spend projects when they were deemed important. That bipartisan legacy has given us some wonderful things such as national/state/local parks, the opportunity for universal education and job training, a social safety net for vulnerable people, and other things. If that's what "tax-and-spend" does--if it strengthens and enriches societies--then fine, I'm okay with that.
But speaking of spending-- It is interesting, isn't it, that Trump wants to build an expensive wall (that Mexico won't pay for), and he's floated the idea of a national-level public works/infrastructure project that would be extraordinarily costly. It will be interesting to see how these ideas move forward, if at all, and how the GOP justifies them in spite of the high cost and need for government oversight.
ME TOO as a serious movement is now dead. It will be framed as political maneuver from now on. Sure some will be able to get naive college kids and ANTIFA types to march around like silly brainless zombies but the movement will no longer capture the country's attention and power mongers can more easily go back to abusing. That IS ON the Democrats.
Sexual assault is not a political topic. ALL people should be aghast at it. But I always knew cons did not give a crap about victims of sexual assault. You just proved it right here. Disgusting.
With regards to IA and his preoccupation with racism. It does not really matter what his "experiences" are when he is trying to sell his opinion. The only thing that matters is whether the reader buys in. My point was that he has made some very good statements for which an honest reader could contemplate; then he throws it away with the BS race card. That's too bad for him, not me. His message is lost.
I beg your pardon? I bring up race when it's relavent, especially with all the dog-whistling Republicans like to do. Sometimes there are blantantly racist politicians who yearn for their 15 minutes of fame in the age of Trump. Does this ring a bell? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ernor-election. You seem to be fixated on race yourself. I won't go into detail other than the fact that black people are supposedly the catylist for Illinois' financial hurdles. Does that ring a bell?
Also, the topic of race appears in pretty high frequency on the WI forum. I give my candid opinion about racism in Wisconsin, there's nothing wrong with that. WI (and America in general) has a serious problem with racism, and I stand by that based on my experience as a POC. I and POC are sick and tired of being silenced for it. What's so hard about admitting the racism still exists? Why can't you have a little compassion for once? POC get denied many different opportunities because of it and people like you. The most overt racism I've dealt with in this state has been in the WOW counities. Try moving furnature while black in Cedarburg and getting the cops called on you for suspected robbery 10 minutes later (yes, the police response time is extremely high in Cedarburg). If you'd like to hear my about that horrificly racist experience, feel free to PM me anytime!
This country is going down the toilet under Trump, and I stand by that, too. I would write more, but we never get anything out of our discourses. No point in trying . I hope you perform your civic duty and vote despite your political leanings!
Sexual assault is not a political topic. ALL people should be aghast at it. But I always knew cons did not give a crap about victims of sexual assault. You just proved it right here. Disgusting.
It became political when Democrats made it political.
This stuff hit fever pitch alongside Trump becoming president.
Hillary's run for office should have been shut down for the same reasons, if we're to be unbiased. Her enabling Bill and never removing herself from that situation is far more serious than anything Trump has ever said or been accused of. If we're to give victims the benefit of the doubt, there's more than a few that need to be listened to concerning the Clintons.
All of it we should be concerned about, not just the people we disagree with.
Funny how liberal Hollywood is screaming childishly about Trump when they themselves helped create and
perpetuate this anything-goes culture of debauchery, crassness, and trashiness.
Who on earth are they to get all preachy all of a sudden?
Not political?
Everything is political nowadays.
It became political when Democrats made it political.
This stuff hit fever pitch alongside Trump becoming president.
Hillary's run for office should have been shut down for the same reasons, if we're to be unbiased. Her enabling Bill and never removing herself from that situation is far more serious than anything Trump has ever said or been accused of. If we're to give victims the benefit of the doubt, there's more than a few that need to be listened to concerning the Clintons.
All of it we should be concerned about, not just the people we disagree with.
If that's the case, and if you're going to reach into history for examples, then you would have to include Thomas Jefferson (Sally Hemings), James Garfield (Lucia Gilbert Calhoun), FDR (Lucy Mercer), Eisenhower (Kay Summersby), and JFK (too many mistresses to name)--and these are just some of the the ones we know about.
Of course, we can single out Hillary Clinton in the "women's lib" era and say that she ought to have done this or that. Some say she ought to have left Bill and shown her strength as an independent woman who doesn't take crap from men. But others note her willingness to forgive him. I don't think it's up to any of us to decide what their personal decisions should be.
Similarly, Trump has been credibly accused of many indiscretions, but who's to say how Melania should react? Is it okay for a woman to stay with a philandering husband if she doesn't have political ambitions, or if she's not a Dem? Or perhaps there's a personal and complicated dimension to the whole thing that keeps her with him?
And as far as Hillary's campaign goes: Why should Hillary's run for office have been shut down? She wasn't the philanderer. Perhaps if her problems with Bill had taken place in the Me Too era, the outcome would have been different, but we'll never know. Things were different even 20 years ago, during the Clinton era.
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Funny how liberal Hollywood is screaming childishly about Trump when they themselves helped create and
perpetuate this anything-goes culture of debauchery, crassness, and trashiness.
Who on earth are they to get all preachy all of a sudden?
Funny how those people aren't running for office and positioning themselves to be the Leader of the Free World. When Trump was just a television personality and business guy, his debauchery, crassness, and trashiness didn't matter so much, because not so many people cared, and he wasn't the Face of the Nation.
Now he is the Face of the Nation, and it isn't pretty.
At least, in Clinton's case, by the time the Lewinsky mess was revealed, he had already built up a strong reputation and cred here and abroad, so he was able to ride that out to his advantage. If that mess had happened early in his presidency, he would've been out.
BTW, if you want relevant people who are hypocritically preachy, look no farther than the long list of "conservative" and "Christian evangelical" politicians who have been caught with their pants down. These people DID run for office.
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You must read a ton, then. Kudos!
. I hope you perform your civic duty and vote despite your political leanings!
