Wisconsin Governor’s Race 2018 (houses, residency, metro)

[sub]

Originally Posted by timberline742

You're quite incorrect. Again. You're completely off base. It is government, through their creation of infrastructure and a baseline for society, by promotion of education, stability of laws and systems, that is responsible for all of that. Without stable government and legal systems, none of the exists. Corporations flourish because of governments. Our advancements do not occur without government.


This is the problem with the right and even worse, the libertarians, they still believe this individual is stronger than society, or even worse, they spout that "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" mindset, which in reality is physically impossible (I tell people that spout that nonsense to actually try it, it is physically impossible, can't be done...). It's these mindsets that scream "I'm ignorant". If you hear a person say "I built this on my own, I did it myself, with no help from anyone... government just gets in the way, they didn't help me do any of this" than 99% of the time you're looking at a person with, at best, a lack of self awareness, and at worst, they're just dumb.

Oh dear goodness.
We're not advocating anarchy here.

Pre-Obama, we all knew that when someone made the statement "I built this on my own", that said person simply had the idea, the drive, and the wherewithal to make the widget or whatever. It also probably means that they did all the footwork or deskwork involved to get their idea up and running.
That Obama statement desperately tries to shift the focus to his views on the importance of government because that's how his mind operates.
The rest of us understand that by default the government sets laws and regulations in place and builds infrastructure. In moderation, that's all fine and dandy.
The ultimate goal of his argument was for more regulation, more laws. He thinks that's how problems get solved, but never seemed to show much concern for the obvious downsides.

[everwinter]

Originally Posted by timberline742

This is the problem with the right and even worse, the libertarians, they still believe this individual is stronger than society, or even worse, they spout that "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" mindset, which in reality is physically impossible (I tell people that spout that nonsense to actually try it, it is physically impossible, can't be done...). It's these mindsets that scream "I'm ignorant". If you hear a person say "I built this on my own, I did it myself, with no help from anyone... government just gets in the way, they didn't help me do any of this" than 99% of the time you're looking at a person with, at best, a lack of self awareness, and at worst, they're just dumb.

I wouldn't call them dumb but I see this mindset a lot in baby boomers around here where I live now (rural Wisconsin) & it's really frustrating. There's a poverty cycle in these small towns that's arguably worse than the Wisconsin cities I lived in (Milwaukee, Madison, LaCrosse, Kenosha.) There's no public transportation here, no tech schools in town, & less jobs. Less county services for things like mental health. Some of the real small towns don't even have a grocery store & I know kids who eat nothing but gas station food because their parents car doesn't work or they don't have a car. But yet locals don't understand why their old classmate who was born in poverty didn't try harder in school & go to UW Platteville or UW Madison like they did. Or start . . . errr inherit their daddies well run business. Say things like - "Why are they so lazy & why don't they work harder?" Weird thing is, a lot of these baby boomers have known these poor individuals & families from early on because in small towns everybody knows everybody. But yet they still don't understand poverty.

Then you have farmers which have a completely different mindset. A lot of farmers are pretty liberal yet very independently minded. That's a different story.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by sub

Oh dear goodness.
We're not advocating anarchy here.

Pre-Obama, we all knew that when someone made the statement "I built this on my own", that said person simply had the idea, the drive, and the wherewithal to make the widget or whatever. It also probably means that they did all the footwork or deskwork involved to get their idea up and running.
That Obama statement desperately tries to shift the focus to his views on the importance of government because that's how his mind operates.
The rest of us understand that by default the government sets laws and regulations in place and builds infrastructure. In moderation, that's all fine and dandy.
The ultimate goal of his argument was for more regulation, more laws. He thinks that's how problems get solved, but never seemed to show much concern for the obvious downsides.

Oh this has nothing to do with Obama or with whatever statements he made. Criminy.


I've worked in a regulatory reform role for an agency for awhile, I couldn't afford to stay because the pay scales and benefits in state government jobs just sucked, but I assure you, none of the regulations were enacted for a desire for more control, or anything like that. They were in response to specific issues that needed addressing, and other attempts at addressing them (more along soft power angels) failed to fix the problem. Often it is because of excesses of companies and individuals, and greed. It's companies inability to moderate and police themselves which causes the need for these regulations.


And NO, they did not do all the footwork or deskwork in a bubble. They did what they did, and had the ability to do what they did, not just because of brainpower/drive/effort, but because society helped them get there.

[sub]

I understand the role of society, but put more emphasis on the role an individual plays in terms of his own success. If society was the bigger part, there would be significantly more Bill Gates running around. It simply isn't that easy.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by sub

I understand the role of society, but put more emphasis on the role an individual plays in terms of his own success. If society was the bigger part, there would be significantly more Bill Gates running around. It simply isn't that easy.

There aren't more Bill Gates running around because he is a child of incredible privilege. He comes from a very affluent family that provided him things very few people in our society have access to, both economically and socially.


Which is, not coincidently, part of the point.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Oh this has nothing to do with Obama or with whatever statements he made. Criminy.


I've worked in a regulatory reform role for an agency for awhile, I couldn't afford to stay because the pay scales and benefits in state government jobs just sucked, but I assure you, none of the regulations were enacted for a desire for more control, or anything like that. They were in response to specific issues that needed addressing, and other attempts at addressing them (more along soft power angels) failed to fix the problem. Often it is because of excesses of companies and individuals, and greed. It's companies inability to moderate and police themselves which causes the need for these regulations.


And NO, they did not do all the footwork or deskwork in a bubble. They did what they did, and had the ability to do what they did, not just because of brainpower/drive/effort, but because society helped them get there.

These "issues" you claim needed solving are for most part, fake issues driven by gov't bureaucrats with a need to feed a monster and grow their own power. Very few true solutions come from gov't.

No one is saying gov't should not exist. What is being said is that gov't is like chemotherapy. While there may be benefits, there are also great damage caused when gov't gets involved. Gov't should be used sparingly and with great care. Not as in today's world, where snake oil salesman politicians tout is as a primary solution.

My company right now is spending tens of thousands of dollars to meet insane, ridiculous CA regulations that will in no way shape or form, "solve" any problem. This experience showcases for me is the most egregious form of gov't overreach and does not thing but empower Sacramento bureaucrats and lawyers.

I hope more states elect people like Walker to want to role back gov't, not increase it's role. If there is corruption in Walker's administration. Who cares? It's small potatoes compared to corruption in excessive gov't states like CA, IL and NY.

[Vegabern]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

These "issues" you claim needed solving are for most part, fake issues driven by gov't bureaucrats with a need to feed a monster and grow their own power. Very few true solutions come from gov't.

No one is saying gov't should not exist. What is being said is that gov't is like chemotherapy. While there may be benefits, there are also great damage caused when gov't gets involved. Gov't should be used sparingly and with great care. Not as in today's world, where snake oil salesman politicians tout is as a primary solution.

My company right now is spending tens of thousands of dollars to meet insane, ridiculous CA regulations that will in no way shape or form, "solve" any problem. This experience showcases for me is the most egregious form of gov't overreach and does not thing but empower Sacramento bureaucrats and lawyers.

I hope more states elect people like Walker to want to role back gov't, not increase it's role. If there is corruption in Walker's administration. Who cares? It's small potatoes compared to corruption in excessive gov't states like CA, IL and NY.

I care. I actually live in Wisconsin. You don't. Why are you even part of this discussion?

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

These "issues" you claim needed solving are for most part, fake issues driven by gov't bureaucrats with a need to feed a monster and grow their own power. Very few true solutions come from gov't. .

Sounds like you don't even understand the process, nor know the difference between laws and regulations.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by Vegabern

I care. I actually live in Wisconsin. You don't. Why are you even part of this discussion?

I CARE because I lived there for decades.
I CARE because I have family and friends all over the state.
I CARE because I still own property there and pay taxes.
I CARE because I have business dealings there.
Further I CARE because we all have a duty to drive out insanity when we see it.

What has Walker done that has made your life so bad?

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Sounds like you don't even understand the process, nor know the difference between laws and regulations.

Pretty sure I do. I have been around a while and know the process.
I took off the rose colored, naive glasses you continue to wear every day a long time ago.

Laws beget regulations which beget bureaucrats which beget insanity that solves almost nothing. You know that too as you allegedly claim you lived the system.