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A lot of competent software engineers are not great programmers. While it helps, one does not need to be a great programmer to be a great software engineer.
the point isn't that they are modest programmers. it's that many are unable to perform even the most basic programming tasks. you can't be a developer in any role if you can't write a simple program when asked. for every awful programmer who somehow makes him/herself useful, there are a hundred who i never, ever want to work with
i do know good managers and senior engineers who i consider moderate programmers. so in that way, i agree you don't need to be a coding rock star
at the entry level, there is little difference between a "software engineer" and a "programmer". even here you can be good here with moderate skills though, but only if you have something else going on like a phenomenal work ethic, artistic talent that helps with GUIs, multi-lingual to help with translation, etc
I've taught CS at Columbia (Undergrad). They're makeup is mostly second generation immigrants and white people. I did my undergrad in CS at Princeton... it was mostly second gen asian and white people.
I was at UPitt and CMU during the same semester once... UPitt had quite a bit of foreigners while CMU did not... they had some... but nowhere near 50%.
we can limit ourselves to the elite if you prefer. it's still a consideration. stanford engineering grad program is well over 40% foreigners (does not include 1st gen). this is engr as a whole, i would expect CS is higher than the other departments
we can limit ourselves to the elite if you prefer. it's still a consideration. stanford engineering grad program is well over 40% foreigners (does not include 1st gen). this is engr as a whole, i would expect CS is higher than the other departments
i think that's actually wrong. at least for some dbms systems. you have to say "employee_id is null" - using the "is" operator rather than the equality "=" operator. the reason is that some dbms systems will evaluate null = null as false. iirc, i got bit by that once on MSSQL 7
i agree with you in your principle though and i wouldn't use remembering that particular fact about null equality logic in an interview since it's such a non intuitive thing and in fact is a debated topic
i also don't know if MS's implementation differs from the ANSI standard. if i had to pick a language for "least standardized" i'd nominate SQL, sadly
also i do understand some folks aren't in top form in an interview - nervous, surprised, etc. but like you i've had "experienced" applicants fail at things that were basically "hello world"
EDIT - in case you care why, consider what would happen on an inner join on a column with some nulls if (null = null) evaluated to true. that's a quick and dirty explanation, and makes me think most/all dbms will handle it this way
Yes, it is wrong. We use SQL Server. The job candidates respond with "= Null". I give them "Is Null". They should be able to pull records with missing values. It is a fundamental skill needed to flag records with missing data.
The candidate with a Comp Sci degree and 25+ years exp was a fraud. He quit trying to figure out the puzzle of "is null", after 3 attempts. He is other attempt was "In Null", which gave an error. Then, he tells me that SQL hasn't been used for a long time by him. The office clerks even knew the answer to the question, since they use "is null" in Access.
There are many people with qualifications, but not all of them qualify.
findings? that link had the figure i was quoting. i don't have an exact number for the CS dept in particular
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest
I've taught CS at Columbia (Undergrad). They're makeup is mostly second generation immigrants and white people. I did my undergrad in CS at Princeton... it was mostly second gen asian and white people.
our of curiosity, how much work have you done in places that were not like this? by this, i mean development at places that aren't google, apple, MS, etc or study/research/teaching at a university that is not a top 25 school?
i'm not trying to be snarky. my ugrad was comparable to yours as is my PhD program and i've also taught. however a portion of my career in between was spent writing loss leader software at a mechanical hardware company and my MS was at CCNY. your definition of "not a great programmer" may be very different from mine if you haven't had the latter experience. i think at the elite places one doesn't see just how much absolutely crappy software development goes on. on the whole, there are a lot more people working in and studying CS at places like CCNY or my former employer than there are at places like google and princeton
Yes, it is wrong. We use SQL Server. The job candidates respond with "= Null". I give them "Is Null". They should be able to pull records with missing values. It is a fundamental skill needed to flag records with missing data.
The candidate with a Comp Sci degree was a fraud. He quit trying to figure out the puzzle of "is null", after 3 attempts. He is other attempt was "In Null", which gave an error. Then, he tells me that SQL hasn't been used for a long time by him.
shake my head.
sorry i misunderstood. you're a tougher interviewer than me, unless that was for a senior position i agree that it's important, but i wouldn't use that particular fact because i can see how someone who is nervous could forget that because so many non SQL languages implement it otherwise. i personally would use a tricky join as an interview topic before i would use that
i've had people fail at even easier things, like implementing a factorial or exponent function. stuff that most 101 courses have as assignment 1 or 2
I do not consider Indian and Chinese capable people. Especially Indians. And I'm sure they will tear down any company to ground if they are management. Just how happened with City group. Source - carpenter contractor that work with all possible races and nations. Especially with Indians I do not have any business. It is not imaginable that any Indian doctor will ever touch any one of my family.
findings? that link had the figure i was quoting. i don't have an exact number for the CS dept in particular
You're trying to validate davenj08's statement that 50% of students (in the aforementioned fields) at good colleges are foreign students. You implied you would follow through when you indicated you were going to limit it to elite schools. Data on a single school doesn't qualify for the validation you're looking for. I'm looking forward to your findings across the elite schools as you suggested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OdysseusNY
our of curiosity, how much work have you done in places that were not like this? by this, i mean development at places that aren't google, apple, MS, etc or study/research/teaching at a university that is not a top 25 school?
i'm not trying to be snarky. my ugrad was comparable to yours as is my PhD program and i've also taught. however a portion of my career in between was spent writing loss leader software at a mechanical hardware company and my MS was at CCNY. your definition of "not a great programmer" may be very different from mine if you haven't had the latter experience. i think at the elite places one doesn't see just how much absolutely crappy software development goes on. on the whole, there are a lot more people working in and studying CS at places like CCNY or my former employer than there are at places like google and princeton
I did mention UPitt earlier...
I know bad programming goes on all the time. I have a strategic partnership with HCL. I've seen the worst of the worst.
I do not consider Indian and Chinese capable people. Especially Indians. And I'm sure they will tear down any company to ground if they are management. Just how happened with City group. Source - carpenter contractor that work with all possible races and nations. Especially with Indians I do not have any business. It is not imaginable that any Indian doctor will ever touch any one of my family.
Companies with Indians and/or Chinese in executive level management include:
- Pepsi
- Johnson & Johnson
- News Corp
- Adobe Systems
- Deutsche Bank
- Bose
Btw, it's Citi, not City.
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and i wouldn't use remembering that particular fact about null equality logic in an interview since it's such a non intuitive thing and in fact is a debated topic
