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Even if everything that you just said is true, it doesn't matter. You're expecting someone else to roll out a red carpet and initiatives that are only there so you and only people like yourself can hack it.
That isn't equality, but preferential treatment.
No I don’t want a red carpet. I want a road that isn’t covered with booby traps, quicksand and flesh eating monsters like the men get. Roadblocks and potholes are fine. Things actively or passively trying to do you harm are not.
I was the number 1,2 or 3 math/science student in my middle school and high school. And no one told me to be an engineer or a scientist. Everyone was super supportive of my aspirations to be the next Oprah though.
If you truly enjoyed math and science, why did someone have to tell you who to be? You were that dependent on the opinion of others?
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Originally Posted by jade408
Ding ding ding!
I had no idea about all the potential STEM careers I could have done. It turns out in my career I have gravitated to technical roles in consulting and marketing. But I could have made different choices a lot sooner with a little bit of encouragement. Or even added some other things to my curriculum to be better at my job.
Did you have access to the Internet? Library? College Guidance counselor? You couldn't do independent research when you were in high school?
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Originally Posted by jade408
We don’t tell girls they can be engineers. Women aren’t represented in pop culture as engineers. Role models matter. Some people can imagine things that don’t exist but most of us need a few visual aids.
These are all excuses. We largely do not tell boys they can be engineer. They are just so interested in the technical fields that they can't think of being someone else. Role models do matter but who is to say that they absolutely have to be the same gender.
Not sure what you mean about the Pop Culture. US pop culture largely does not represent engineers or scientists positively. If they are shown than they are these weird geeky creatures with no social life. This is a big problem for both genders...
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jade408
No I don’t want a red carpet. I want a road that isn’t covered with booby traps, quicksand and flesh eating monsters like the men get. Roadblocks and potholes are fine. Things actively or passively trying to do you harm are not.
Yes, it's all milk and honey here on the penis side. Us business owners just sit around, and come up with new ways how we can make women's jobs all that more difficult.
If you truly enjoyed math and science, why did someone have to tell you who to be? You were that dependent on the opinion of others?
The only person I knew who studied math was a teacher. So I did not know of potential careers in math and science. I didn't want to be a teacher. There were no computer scientists where I went to middle school and high school. Most people didn't have college educations. My parents and some of my grandparents went to college, but they did not do science careers.
So yes, I had no idea what the options were.
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Did you have access to the Internet? Library? College Guidance counselor? You couldn't do independent research when you were in high school?
The internet didn't exist for the public when I was in high school. My guidance counselor thought I was overachieving because I had good grades and got accepted to college. She didn't understand why I wanted to go to Berkeley when there were "perfectly good schools in my state." So yes, she was pointless.
I had different career aspirations as a high schooler than I ended up with. STEM careers never made it on the list, I had zero awareness of them.
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These are all excuses. We largely do not tell boys they can be engineer. They are just so interested in the technical fields that they can't think of being someone else. Role models do matter but who is to say that they absolutely have to be the same gender.
Boys aren't natively interested in engineering. We market toys to boys about building stuff, making stuff and doing experiments. Those are called boys toys. Girls are encouraged to get dolls, jump rope, whatever. Those are girls toys.
So we spend a lot of time and energy telling girls and boys what they should be doing.
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Not sure what you mean about the Pop Culture. US pop culture largely does not represent engineers or scientists positively. If they are shown than they are these weird geeky creatures with no social life. This is a big problem for both genders...
It is. Because girls don't see themselves represented at all or do not see an opportunity to engage in that sort of environment that excludes them. And other "non-awkward" people do not want to be pigeonholed. MAybe if we bothered to show all types of people in STEM roles, more people would show up. The now canceled show Numbers did a very good job at this.
Funny thing about facts is that they're true regardless of how you *feel* about them. Any competent engineer understands this.
So I'm sorry if it makes you feel bad that relatively few females *choose* STEM majors. I'm sorry it makes you feel bad that peoples' preconceptions actually mirror that fact.
Assumptions like the notion that females aren't interested in tech don't develop in a vacuum. And they won't change unless/until females in large numbers actually show interest and results in these fields. I won't hold my breath.
Look, I do think that socialization plays a significant role. [snip]
Infantilization is oppression in this context.
I wanted to work.for NASA and was told I should go.into.social services.
Your ignorance of how strongly women are steered from math and science is stunning.
My niece, born in 2002, was recently told that "girls don't do Lego" when she wanted to join the engineering club.
This was by a TEACHER.
On the one hand I am a realist and understand that nobody will solve my problems. On the other hand you'd have to deliberately assume all women are lying idiots to think that nobody faces overt, intentional discrimination.
Yes. Maybe you should have asked me to explain interdisciplinary after all. Oceanographers literally work hand in hand with marine engineers. I have worked on engineering projects involving everything from slocum gliders to long term ecomon systems.
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I have. I've seen that large companies have numerous initiatives to hire more female and minority engineers. I've seen that with female engineers, even average performance means they will be promoted- particularly to visible positions because it's good PR. And female engineers are so few in number that ANY who show up and can actually do the job are fast-tracked to a good career.
Good for you. Would you like a cookie or a pat on the head?
Now, for some reality. The fact that you keep presenting your anecdotes as data shows how little value your opinions has. Additionally, you are not in a position to evaluate every female engineer you have met, more evidence of your bias. So please spare me the mansplaining.
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That's why when my friend's daughter was talking about majoring in engineering, I encouraged her to do so. I didn't tell her that she will get preferential treatment, but I know she will. Particularly at large companies that care about their public image.
I have been keeping track on the literal hundreds of our female students who major in engineering (as we do for all the STEM kids) and their careers over the last 20 years. Your opinions compared to that data pool and the other studies from across the country doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
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Now like I said, any female engineer who can merely do the job will do well. But if she can do the job AND she's photogenic? That's a fast track to management. They'll put her on every brochure and website they publish. That's exactly what happened at the aircraft company I worked for.
Who cares what meaningless anecdotes you keep pushing? Besides anyone with real STEM training let alone engineering would be talking about the data not pretending their little stories are evidence. Suspicious at best.
The only person I knew who studied math was a teacher. So I did not know of potential careers in math and science. I didn't want to be a teacher. There were no computer scientists where I went to middle school and high school. Most people didn't have college educations. My parents and some of my grandparents went to college, but they did not do science careers.
So yes, I had no idea what the options were.
The internet didn't exist for the public when I was in high school. My guidance counselor thought I was overachieving because I had good grades and got accepted to college. She didn't understand why I wanted to go to Berkeley when there were "perfectly good schools in my state." So yes, she was pointless.
I had different career aspirations as a high schooler than I ended up with. STEM careers never made it on the list, I had zero awareness of them.
I have to admit I laughed at that "why didn't you just go online?" question. Why did you not just take the space elevator to our moonbase and discuss your ambitions with the space colonists there, eh?
In my own case it was not just being a girl, but also being low-SES, of a culture where sticking close to home was encouraged, and then a first-generation college student. The only professional people I knew as a kid were the ones a child routinely encounters (e.g. pediatrician, teacher, dentist, etc). It sounds silly to say now, but my mental picture of what various careers actual entailed on a day-to-day basis probably came mostly from tv/movies and novels. I couldn't have told you what an engineer actually did, beyond the broadest vagaries. So job/career suggestions from the adults in my life, particularly authority figures, were quite meaningful.
Had I been a boy, I still would have faced challenges due to SES and background, but fewer.
Nowadays kids do have the opportunity to break more out of their "bubbles" thanks to the internet, but even that is of limited use if you don't know what to search for. You have to be aware of the possibilities before you can seek them out, really.
That's why when my friend's daughter was talking about majoring in engineering, I encouraged her to do so. I didn't tell her that she will get preferential treatment, but I know she will. Particularly at large companies that care about their public image.
Now like I said, any female engineer who can merely do the job will do well. But if she can do the job AND she's photogenic? That's a fast track to management. They'll put her on every brochure and website they publish. That's exactly what happened at the aircraft company I worked for.
Do you honestly not understand that this is, itself, a form of the gender inequality the OP brought up? That a woman's looks have more of an effect on her career trajectory than a man's do?
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