Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-19-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,646 posts, read 16,032,303 times
Reputation: 5286

Advertisements

If thread is dying i would like it to be moved to the history forum.
I think people there have a lot to say about this topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-04-2016, 02:10 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,153 posts, read 39,404,784 times
Reputation: 21247
1400s: Ming China

Ming China - Overall the most advanced technologically and with a massive population and an advanced economy for the time. It was so prosperous that finding a route to trade with China without the Ottoman middlemen was a major impetus for the growth of seaborne trade and exploration for Europe. At this point, China still had periods of exploration and was still technologically towards or in the front among countries.

1500s: Ming China / Spanish Empire (Hapsburgs) / Ottoman Empire

Ming China - Ming Dynasty China is still much larger and more prosperous than any other nation-state in the world and technologically about on par with the most advanced countries (overall) for most of this time. However, radical changes have been happening in various European countries which is creating an environment for rapid social, economic, and technological changes shared among the nations. China's goods are still very much coveted and a major impetus for the exploration of alternate trade routes for European nations--this will continue to be a major driver for centuries ahead.

Spanish Empire (Hapsburgs) - The argument here is based on massive territorial expansion during this time period, a large economy (though heavily skewed towards silver), sharing in the general technological advancements of Europe during the time period, and the ability to wage many wars all around while still sustaining itself. The Spanish Empire was also able to assimilate many of the technological advancements and newly introduced agricultural products from the preceding Muslim rule to its benefits. The problems with Spain as an argument is that much of the territorial expansions in the New World was focused on extracting as much in raw goods as possible and a lot of that was silver which meant the economic output of Spain was uneven as the inflation from the huge influx of silver meant it was relatively unprofitable for other forms of economic output within Spain (see the economic effect Dutch disease, but applied to Spanish New World silver). Meanwhile, the territorial expansions within Europe were very hard-fought (and ultimately lost) that were a huge financial drain.

Ottoman Empire - This is a time of major expansion of its territorial realm and stabilization of the empire as the empire solidifies its position. The territory is massive and the power is pretty split between the federal centralized government and the multiple parts and pieces of the empire which have pretty strong autonomy. The empire is at a major trade crossroads and is inheriting a great amount of knowledge from the Golden Age of Islam and its technologies while also absorbing the Byzantine Empire's advances while still having some degree of exchange with the multiple nations of Europe. It also controls many important sea trade routes with their control of much of the Mediterranean, the Black Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf

Note: Since the argument is for leading country, as in a single country, Ming China has a good argument for this period. However, it's about this time that multiple nations within Europe, including the Ottoman Empire, are becoming quite powerful on their own such that as a region, Europe in this century is becoming the most powerful and advanced region in the world. Contrast that with Ming China which is by far the leading power of its region and with no substantial counterpart nearby. Meanwhile, the explorations of trade routes throughout the world and the establishment of colonies in the New World start becoming extremely lucrative from the middle of this century on and the technological advancements of the New World, especially in terms of domesticated plants and the goods that come from them (corn/maize, potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, cocoa, certain bean varieties, etc. and rubber in the future), are now making significant inroads in the rest of the world but first in Europe where these products will greatly transform the societies of the Old World. Interestingly enough, the trade routes found by European nations during the Age of Discovery play a part in reviving Ming China's foreign trade, but also makes it extremely vulnerable to the influx of commodities, most notably silver, from elsewhere.

1600s - Ming China, Spanish Empire (Hapsburgs), Ottoman Empire, Kingdom of France

Ming China - There's still a fair argument to be made for Ming China in the first few decades of this century based on the same arguments as before. However, Ming China is fairly cut off from the advancements being made in Europe at the time and are slow to adopt technological advances from there or to do much in reforming the government or curtailing corruption. Bad harvests and a reliance on mostly Spanish silver which at one point gets cut off causing economic instability serving as a tipping point that leaves Ming China's economy and society reeling and susceptible to outside invasion and hits near total collapse in 1644. This is the last time, continuing on through to the modern era, that China has a strong argument for being the leading country.

Spanish Empire (Hapsburgs) - This is a continuation of the last century as Spain's colonies expand and solidify. Unfortunately, the problems listed previously with constant spending on wars against other nations, especially in the name of an arch-conservative Catholic faith, as well as the reliance on silver imports that is drowning out other industries is sowing the seeds for its eventual fall into a relatively backwards country within Europe. It's also at this point that several other European countries join in on global maritime trade and the establishment of colonies throughout the world which greatly lessens the advantage.

Ottoman Empire - The Ottoman Empire continues to expand only being significantly checked at the Battle of Vienna in 1683 fighting against a strong defensive effort involving several major European powers. The middle of this century is probably the apex of the Ottoman Empire as arguably the leading country in the world. The Ottoman's political structure allowed for fast co-opting of territories, but hinged on a powerful ruler in order to cement federal power in the face of a massive empire with territories vying for autonomy or even independence.

Kingdom of France - France had a very tumultuous previous century, but at the end of that century had settled much of its internal conflicts and is now shifting to conflicts with other nations. It's able to successfully fight the Spanish Hapsburgs and through course of this century cements itself as the hegemon of Europe from which all other nations takes their cues. Part of this is the top-level switch from persecuting to protecting Protestants in a mostly Catholic country through the Edict of Nantes in the tail end of the previous century and so sidesteps a lot of the great internal strife that comes from religious infighting for most of the century and the monarchy manages to get rid of the relatively inefficient feudal system that greatly reduced the power of the monarchy. As a large powerful modern state with a strong centralized government, France increasingly becomes the power that other countries in Europe turn to, with the nobility and royalty of other European nations taking on many of the mannerisms and dress of the French. At this point, the language of the learned and of European (which is quickly becoming international through the colonies) diplomacy is French and from which we coin the term lingua franca.

Notes: Europe is now the undisputed most powerful region and at this point England, the Austrian Hapsburgs, the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Swedish Empire, the Netherlands, and multiple other European states are fairly advanced for the time period. What's more, there's an international European community developing in terms of trade and scientific / technological advancement that is forming and creating a basis for a new model of power industrialized nations. Scientific and technological advancements are moving forward at a faster pace than anywhere else in the world and these advancements come with powerful military and economic abilities that greatly change the standing of the various nations of Europe's interactions with the rest of the world.

1700s - Kingdom of France / French First Republic

Kingdom of France / French First Republic - France is at the height of its power and there is no single nation in the world more powerful or looked to as a preeminent power. There are minor skirmishes that France will lose over the course of the century, but much of that is because France is projecting its power all over and is able to maintain its preeminence throughout the entire century. Even when France is roiling from its revolution during the tail end of this century, it is still a power to be reckoned with on an international level as seen by the large combined forces it takes to fight the French as both the French First Republic and then later the French First Empire.

Notes: Europe continues to cement itself as the leading region of the world during this period. Meanwhile, the previous century's powers such as Spain and the Ottoman Empire are stagnating with a myriad of internal issues and France wages war with both. The Qing dynasty in China does solidify its control and expand during this period, but is slow to adopt important technologies from the rest of the world and slow to modernize its political system and industries. It still plays a major part in the increasing global trade, but its trade is much in fancy goods and little in things of great industrial importance. However, no European power at this point is able to project that power into East Asia in a significant way so Qing China continues going down its road without much realization of the power differential that's developing.

1800s - French First Republic / French First Empire, British Empire

French First Republic / French First Empire - The reign of Napoleon is the final time when France is the leading nation of the world. Tt takes a massive combined force of several other European nations in order to finally defeat France, a France that has gone through war after war after war, to a much diminished power in 1815 which is a testament to just how powerful France is at the time.

British Empire - The rest of the century resides squarely with the British Empire as it expands and takes the lead in international politics and creates a massive colonial network and a correspondingly massive navy to extend its interests throughout the century. At this point, much of the leading scientific and technological advancements take place in the British Empire and the advent of industrialization makes the British Empire not just a holder of vast territory and ruler of a huge array and population of peoples, but also makes it become the workshop of the world.

Notes: Various other major European powers rise throughout this century, and France remains a very powerful sometimes foe sometimes ally of the British Empire, but none can be argued as a serious overall contender to the British Empire. Russia is expanding massively to its East, but is still relatively backwards as a nation and much of the land it conquers isn't particularly prime territory. In the New World, the United States starts becoming a major power over the course of the century as it expands westward and even starts flexing some international might with the Monroe doctrine, the annexation of Hawaii, and wars with the remnants of the Spanish Empire. The Ottoman Empire continues to stagnate while Qing Dynasty China flirts with modernization but is generally unsuccessful in its endeavors and is coerced to sign unequal treaties with multiple Western powers (including the US) but is powerful enough to withstand outright conquest. In contrast to Qing China, Japan, after being coerced out of isolation by the US fleet commanded by Matthew Perry, quickly takes the lesson to heart and radically modernizes itself. However, Japan remains a relatively small island nation so never quite becomes the leading country but rather becomes a leading country that is less powerful and influential than the most powerful major Western powers.

1900s - British Empire, United States

British Empire - The Pax Brittanica holds for the first couple decades of this century and the British Empire is the leading nation among a group of several leading powers (mostly in Europe, but plus the United States and Japan). Of course, World War I forces a huge commitment of resources by the British to the destruction of warfare and the drawing of armed forces from its massive empire starts bringing to a head the issues of inequality and resentment from the many colonies and territories of the Empire. The first to break off during this period is actually much closer to home with Ireland's war of independence. However, the British Empire is still left mostly intact after the First World War, especially as the UK proper does not suffer any significant damage during this period though some of the fraying at its seams are starting to show. In fact, the British Empire actually gets a modicum of territorial expansion at the expense of Germany during this period. However, the Second World War really frays the empire, and what's more, actually results in significant damage to the UK itself. The immediate aftermath of World War II seems to point to the possibility of rebuilding and a continuation of the British Empire as potentially one of two or three leading powers (the term superpower was actually coined to support the idea of a world that consists of three major powers with much greater influence than all others and those were to be the British Empire, the United States, and the Soviet Union), but the essential bankruptcy of the Empire over the course of the two wars and the rapid dismantling of the British Empire into independent nations that had been percolating throughout this period quickly makes clear that the British Empire was no longer the leading country by the end of World War II if not earlier.

United States - The United States was already a major economic power and arguably already vied with the British Empire in terms of economic power at the start of the century. However, the United States certainly did not have the reputation of the British Empire and was behind the UK when it came to cultural influence and scientific and technological advancement. Its influential role in World War I helped it gain in international prestige with the US president Woodrow Wilson being a linchpin in the (ultimately unsuccessful) peace agreements that came afterwards. While things could have gone in many directions after World War I, they didn't. They went almost headlong into the second World War in fairly short order (not too great for a war that was supposed to end all wars). It's during the course of World War II that the United States became the obvious leading country for several reasons. One was that the United States had little to know material damage to its cities and infrastructure over the course of the wars because none, save for Pearl Harbor, Midway, and arguably the Philippines, of the battles were fought within the US itself. As a corollary to that, it also didn't have to put itself into massive debt due to the wars as it actually loaned money and materials (to be paid back with interest) during the wars and wasn't fighting for its very existence so could be good about how it spent. Another reason is that the United States became the recipient of an incredible number of leading scientists, engineers, and academics from Europe as many first fled the prospect of living in a warzone during the first World War, then the Nazi regime and its persecutions, then fled the prospect of living in a dangerous warzone again during the second World War II, then were outright offered an amnesty of sorts for Axis scientists and engineers at the end of the war (Operation Paperclip), and finally had a firmly established scientific community that made it palatable to leave the aftermath of war in Europe behind. This had a profound influence on the scientific and technological advancement of the United States as the main beneficiary of human and financial capital fleeing what was then the most advanced region in the world--while the US had been a beneficiary of this for the preceding century, it was never in such a rapid influx. The United States has gone on to become the leading country up until today and is likely to continue for a while.

Note: An argument that the German Empire is the leading country is interesting, but I don't think it holds water. Certainly it was one of the leading powers and had great economic might but still took a backseat to the British Empire and even the United States during that period. The German Empire depended on a quick and rapid fall of its neighboring territories and a quick truce afterwards for its plan to conquer Europe and with the British mostly keeping their noses out of it through not wanting to get involved with continental affairs. Unfortunately, that never really happened and it's hard to understand how that could have happened. The Third Reich also made similar gambles and on the hope that the British Empire and the United States would not join in (or even hoped for support from these countries), but that also in retrospect seemed to be a fool's errand. The other country that's proffered is the Soviet Union, but as evidenced by its fall and current economic prospects, the Soviet Union was mostly a paper tiger due to its terribly structured and inefficient economy and its ideology-battered and isolated scientific community.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-04-2016 at 03:05 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2016, 06:41 PM
 
64 posts, read 65,878 times
Reputation: 44
come on... spain ruled the planet when they discovered the americas for the Europeans and created an enormous empire. You gotta give it some credit!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2016, 06:44 PM
 
64 posts, read 65,878 times
Reputation: 44
so the netherlands and belgium gained their independence from spain?

interesting
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2016, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,646 posts, read 16,032,303 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britney-Melbrooke View Post
so the netherlands and belgium gained their independence from spain?

interesting
Makes you wonder why the Spanish didn't control larger parts of France.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2016, 08:00 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,153 posts, read 39,404,784 times
Reputation: 21247
Two nations/regions I didn't mention, but might have an arguable claim is the Mughal Empire in the latter half of the 1500s to the mid-1600s and the Safavid dynasty dynasty of Persia in the 1500s through the 1600s. They have a lot of the arguments that are similar to China with its massive territory and population, but it's not clear just how powerful or influential they were at the time especially in light of how quickly they folded due to internal fighting and external invasions so it's difficult to gauge if either region were serious contenders as a leading country though they were significant and influential. Certainly the Safavid dynasty and its successors were not a leading power by the 1700s as it suffered a string of losses to Russia which was a major, though not the leading, European power, and neither were the the Mughals who in turn were crushed by the successors to the Safavid dynasty. However, there might be some line of thought that can make a case for one or both of them during the 1500s and 1600s though I think both would be difficult arguments since they were neither as large or prosperous as China and seemed to have had little technological advancements relative to the European nations of the time.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-04-2016 at 08:18 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2016, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
11,655 posts, read 12,956,707 times
Reputation: 6391
500BC - 200BC Babylon and Assyria
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2016, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,646 posts, read 16,032,303 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
500BC - 200BC Babylon and Assyria
Babylon and Assyria didn't have any power after 539 BC.


500-401 BC: Achaemenid Empire

400-301 BC: Macedonian Empire

300-201 BC: Seleucid Empire
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
11,655 posts, read 12,956,707 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Babylon and Assyria didn't have any power after 539 BC.


500-401 BC: Achaemenid Empire

400-301 BC: Macedonian Empire

300-201 BC: Seleucid Empire
Ah, my mistake. Historic dates, especially those before the common era, can be a bit muddling and confusing.

Neo-Assyrian Empire: 911 BC–605 BC
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-06-2016, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,646 posts, read 16,032,303 times
Reputation: 5286
Who was more powerful and influential from 100 BC to 1 BC?

Roman Empire, Parthian Empire or Western Han Dynasty?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > World

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:19 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top