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I do think it is a bit irresponsible in cases like the Barrow story for someone to do this without informing the proper people what they are going to do.
In the case of the hiker around Barrow - I don't know that whole story, but I think he should have informed the authorities that he would be out there. To risk the lives of others because you want to do something is irresponsible and selfish.
Nice idea, but who is going to keep track of all these people? And do you call out a helicopter every time someone isn't exactly where they say they expected to be?
Keep in mind that about half of the population here ventures out on the tundra as a regular part of their life style. You are talking about trying to pin down 2000 people. It isn't practical.
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If the authorities had known he was hiking, I don't think they would have tried to land. They probably would still check it out because they have to verify the report.
There was no evidence at all that anyone was in any danger; there was no need for a helicopter, much less for them to try landing.
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Remember someone called the police because I was lying in the snow waiting for the aurora. And I wasn't lying still. I was moving my hands and head to sheild my eyes from the lights and looking around the sky for the aurora. I felt bad they got the call and had to come out.
First, what we found out was that nobody had actually called them to respond to you, they were called to the hotel on a different issue and while investigating that they saw you. What you were doing is very unusual here (for healthy sane people :-) and is generally an activity only seen by people who are in danger due to impaired mental functionality!
Remember that you had to convince to police officers that you did have all of your mental facilities! And once they realized that, they were no longer interested (other than for a pleasant conversation with a tourist who has some unusual ways about him!).
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In a case of such a hike, 90+ miles in the environment of the North Slope he should also have had a radio to contact the authorities to let them know he was OK.
Nope. A radio yes... but to notify them when is is NOT okay! And since he was okay, he didn't use it.
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The people in search and rescue have made a personal commitment to what they are doing - to ignore that is not acceptable.
He didn't! They did... Opps.
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I know sometimes the authorities will prohibit such activity because they deem it unsafe - usually because they believe the person is not really prepared or capable.
Not here they won't!
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Take a look at the restrictions and requirements from BASC on their members. Yes it is for your personal safety, but it is also to minimize the risk to others. (ignore any possible liability issues with BASC please)
But that is not government, and those are all for people who necessarily are virtually clueless about what they can do here. Remember the story I told you about the couple of visiting scientists who when down the road, and happened to see a polar bear. The guy mentioned that he didn't get any good pictures at all, but she probably did... because she got out of the truck and walked out on the beach where she could get close enough! (The head of BASC, who is a long time resident of Barrow, nearly had a fit from what I hear.)
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When I go hiking I let someone know, they know where I will be, and when I expect to be back. I will check in when done to give the all clear.
Sure, but how do you know that fellow had not done exactly that? He sure didn't turn in an alarm, and nobody had reported him overdue either. The report was simply that a person had been sighted walking on the tundra during a wind storm.
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I get annoyed when I read of hikers who shouldn't be hiking where they are due to inexperience, lack of ability, or plain ignorance. Then search and rescue is called and sometimes there are problems.
Sure, but neither the fellow here in Barrow nor the Japanese long distance trekker fit that catagory. Both clearly knew exactly what they were doing.
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There are a lot of people like myself - I know quite a number. Some are now dead, some will die, some will live. Some with more balls, some with less, some with intelligence, some without, some who just want to prove something. Some who just want the adventure.
Welllll... you are in for a probably pleasant surprise here. Virtually everyone who lives here fits that description. Alaska in general is a very adventurous place, and people who don't like adventure leave. Barrow and the whole North Slope is of course an all day every day adventure.
For sure guys, I'm not trying to come off negative here or anything and I really don't know why he did it or the prep he did beforehand. I see both of your points however. But due to the time of year, I really don't think anyone needs to be hiking out when a cold snap can hit, much like this past week. -50 is just too dangerous...but hey people can do what they want, I just don't want to see other peoples lives at risk unnecessarily.
Ok Floyd you did hit a few nails and missed a few.
I debated with myself on posting that before discussing/arguing it with you.
1) I don't know everything - I agree no way to track 2000 people.
2) Right. Why would they dispatch a chopper for something so common?
I can't figure out why they would try to land either.
3) with a radio he would contact the chopper to let them know - "buzz off" Of course he wouldn't keep the radio on all the time - battery life, and "checking-in" is ridicuous.
4) The police in Barrow TOLD me they received a call of someone passed out in the snow, they said they were there to check on it. After talking with me, they took off. Odd behavior for police responding to call at the hotel - for some other reason.
Remember I was there.
NITPICK ALERT "facilities" I think you meant "faculties" - I usually don't carry a porta-potty with me (lol)
BTW the police did wave hello to me when I was out one morning at 2:00am blowing bubbles - I think they were used to me by then.
5) I recall a conversation with either Sam or Joe (probably Sam) about driving those big wheeled things from Prudhoe? to Barrow to bring in vehicles. Someone said even an individual can drive that road however they will not be allowed if they are not properly prepared. Might be a private corp issue not govt. but either way if you are prohibited then you are prohibited. Or maybe I'm confused?
6) But that is not government, and those are all for people who necessarily are virtually clueless about what they can do here
Both clearly knew exactly what they were doing
I don't recall using the word Government. I believe the word used was authorities. Exactly. How did S&R know who and what this guy was? They had NO Choice but to react.
The fact remains S&R was put at risk and an expensive machine was damaged/destoryed for no reason. How could that be prevented?
Sorry if I missed a few points you made. I believe in the freedom to do yourself in - either intentionally or otherwise.
I smell swiss here. Yours or mine?
Hope you're having a good time. Only +14F out right now - way too warm for frozen bubbles. Darn. But at least the sky is clear.
But I think Warpt and Granny did get some bubbles to shatter.
Oh, oh my friend just got up to shoot himself in the leg again. That's gotta be a real bitc#.
I think most of you are jealous because he has the balls to try something simply because he want's too.
And since you won't...you find fault in it. Which makes you feel secure in your own little sheltered world.....
Ok Floyd you did hit a few nails and missed a few.
Nah, I'm must having a hard time explaining how it works to someone who has only seen a few days of life here. I'm not sure what it takes to paint the right picture in your mind yet... but it won't take too long. I'll learn about what triggers what, and you'll learn more about what's here.
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4) The police in Barrow TOLD me they received a call of someone passed out in the snow, they said they were there to check on it. After talking with me, they took off. Odd behavior for police responding to call at the hotel - for some other reason.
Remember I was there.
Might be either way, but what we heard was that they were told someone was selling booze in one of the rooms. It might be that the reason was what they thought was a drunk passed out in the snow. Either way, what you were doing did look like something other than what you assumed it looked like. Once they knew you were okay, they had no need to talk to you.
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NITPICK ALERT "facilities" I think you meant "faculties" - I usually don't carry a porta-potty with me (lol)
Actually, I meant it as I wrote it. You'll find that almost any dictionary will provide more definitions than just toilet facilities!
Faculties would be the ability or capacity to function; facilities is the ease of performing. Either of them would fit common usage, but the connotation with facilities is that you might be partially and temporarily impaired, while using faculties hints at either never having an ability or being more seriously impair.
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5) I recall a conversation with either Sam or Joe (probably Sam) about driving those big wheeled things from Prudhoe? to Barrow to bring in vehicles. Someone said even an individual can drive that road however they will not be allowed if they are not properly prepared. Might be a private corp issue not govt. but either way if you are prohibited then you are prohibited. Or maybe I'm confused?
Only slightly.
The problem is liability. The security past the gate on the haul road into the oil patch belongs with the oil companies, not with the State or the Borough. The road from Prudhoe to Nuiqsut is a private road, not open to public access. If there are ice roads built on any part of the route from Nuiqsut to Barrow you would again be on a private road. They of course have rules for their own employees, and you will be required to meet the same qualifications. Otherwise, driving on the tundra is open to anyone any time. For example if you want to drive from Barrow to Nuiqsut, have at it, with no restrictions at all.
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6) But that is not government, and those are all for people who necessarily are virtually clueless about what they can do here
Both clearly knew exactly what they were doing
I don't recall using the word Government. I believe the word used was authorities.
That is called "property owners", not "authorities". You are of course responsible for what you allow people to do on your property...
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Exactly. How did S&R know who and what this guy was? They had NO Choice but to react.
No, they made a decision based on information that should not have lead to that reaction. I won't bore you with excessive detail, but I've seen many responses that were significantly more necessary where no chopper was launched because it was not appropriate.
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The fact remains S&R was put at risk and an expensive machine was damaged/destoryed for no reason. How could that be prevented?
That's a tough call. I don't know the circumstances which brought on that response, so I can't really comment on what caused it or how it could have been avoided. It may have just been a fluke. It also could be that the person who reported it embellished the report, and if that is the case there simply is no reliable way to prevent it.
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Sorry if I missed a few points you made.
Well, this sort of thing requires a great deal more background than you have yet; and of course the way to get the history part of it is to sit around with some old fart and come up with a barage of "what if" questions.
Wait till next week, and Joe and I will be happy to solve what ever problems you can imagine each morning. We've been doing it for everyone else here for years... ;-)
You're going to enjoy this place, I can see that already. Heh, next thing you know the sun is going to come up, and you'll have to figure out a whole new Barrow!
Yep, I knew you'd come through. There is a lot I don't know and I think your post shows that. It's good for others to see this also. What I considered "commen sense" doesn't hold ice in every location. I have a skewed view of mostly problem hikers in HI. They've downed a couple of choppers for no reason there too. I was acquianted with one of the chopper pilots in one near tragic case.
The big issue I see is how to keep the good guys safe when a Bozo does something stupid. How can they know when all is OK. The Barrow incident cost BIG money. I really think the State should make everyone who moves to Alaska to sign a waiver stating they do not expect emergency services to go out into the wild for a possible rescue.
i.e. IF YOU DO NOT SPECIFICALLY CALL FOR HELP - radio, emergency beacon, flare etc you will not receive help. Might keep those thinking of something from going out. Might even keep some less desirables out.
I had a similar discussion about people who drive "improperly" because insurance is there to help them out. IF YOU ARE MADE RESPONSIBLE - YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT ANY CONSEQUENCES.
I know I'm going to enjoy Alaska and Barrow in particular.
Maybe people will think this harsh, but I accept things. Before I do something that may end up bad - I understand - it's OK if I don't go home tonight. It's nice to know many people up there feel the same.
I hope the other guy is OK. But if he died doing what he wanted - more power to him. I've been close and I know I don't want to die in a hospital bed. Get me outdoors to die in nature.
Thanks for a great discussion.
I have a little time before I need to get going so I just had to see your response.
I should be back on the 8th - weather and Delta airlines permitting.
I may just get so pissed with them that I jump ship in Atlanta and figure another way to get back. Well....I do like to walk.... lol
I think I get in mid afternoon on the 8th - how about dinner that night at S&L's.
Why should you have to "check-in" with the authorities when you want to go outside? This is still the USofA. Land of the free and home of the brave. When I lived in Barrow I would go out on walks/hikes in the middle of winter often. It's a great stress reliever and good exercise too. We're coming to a point in society where we are getting a little too nosy. It's okay to go outside even in the cold.
You should at least tell someone where you are planning on going, what you have with you, and when you plan on returning. If you don't come back within a specific time, then they can go find you.
I agree with Stiffnecked (i got one of those this morn hunched over the laptop on the floor)
I don't think you should have to check in. But letting someone in the area like Barrow know - not for the 1/2 day walk but - for the trek to Wainwright - MIGHT help prevent uncessary responses from S&R.
As Floyd said - I don't think there is a really good solution to this.
But stiffnecked. If you were out and broke a leg 10 miles from anywhere, do you expect someone to come help you? From your previous posts on the Alaska forum I think you're the kind who would splint yourself and manage to get back to help on your own. You aren't going to depend on someone looking for you. Self reliance is a requirement for this lifestyle.
Warpt,
I think rather than having a time frame, maybe agree that I will contact you on or by a given date (via radio), IF you don't get that call after waiting a few days then maybe help may be appropriate.
But radios get lost, batteries die - lots of stuff can happen.
Ultimately I think the only really workable thing is YOU are responsible and if help doesn't happen - at least you know going to sleep and freezing isn't all that bad a way to go. and no I don't consider that a senseless death. If you've done everything YOU could and still can't make it - well damn - you have it your all - regardless of the outcome - I admire and respect that. As someone posted earlier, where would we be except for the brave and capable people who came before us. Let's carry on that tradition that made this country what it is (what it was - I don't really like what it's become). We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. We learn and grow from both their successes and their failures.
I'm not talking about getting stuck on the side of the road. I'm talking about when you put yourself into a situation out in the middle of nowhere - you HAVE to rely on yourself - better make sure you're up to it.
ONE Exception - plane crash etc. NTSB does need to investigate - what we learn in every crash and accident is important. Maybe we can prevent a recurrance if it is due to structural failure, design issue, standard procedure etc.
Oh well, it's been a good discussion this morning, but I gotta get going.
Have a good day everyone.
Hmmm - ham and egg-white on an english muffin - yum. and all digits intact.
Brian
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