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Lets face it, the only areas where Detroit looks bad is in the abandoned neighborhoods. In Havana its the neighborhoods where the people live that looks bad and the buildings are collapsing while people still live in them. In my opinion, there is no comparison between Detroit and Havana.
LOL! Are you actually trying to convince yourself that people do not inhabit abandoned buildings in Detroit?
If we are going to cherry-pick the pictures we show of these cities, then let's look at Old Town Havana, a UNESCO World Heritage Site:
"This is not exactly a question of gentrification; when your city has 70,000 abandoned buildings, it will not be gentrified anytime soon. Rather, it’s one of aesthetics. And in Detroit, you can’t talk aesthetics without talking ruin porn, a term that has become increasingly familiar in the city. Detroiters, understandably, can get touchy about the way descriptions and photographs of ruined buildings have become the favorite Midwestern souvenirs of visiting reporters."
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Originally Posted by caribny
When you show evidence that NYC looks like Havana then we can talk.
Comapare Havana to NYC? NYC is one of the four major World Class cities on the planet. It would be foolhardy to compare Chicago to NYC, never mind Havana.
A much better comparison would be to look at the economic standing of Cuba vs. the U.S. and then compare cities based on that. Cuba sits pretty much in the middle of a list of the richest to poorest countries on the planet. Havana would be an accurate reflection of that. The people there are educated, and have access to affordable food, clothes and medical care. In fact, if the U.S. every lifts the embargo, Cuba would likely begin to rise above the economic standing it finds itself in.
America, by comparison, is one of the richest economic entities on the planet. However, despite having NYC to boast about, it also suffers from places like Detroit, Camden, East St. Louis and the lovely 9th Ward of New Orleans to be ashamed of. In *every* major city of the U.S. (including the beautiful Manhattan you love to boast about), you can find homeless people wandering the streets wearing rags for clothing and eating out of garbage cans like vermin, without any access to affordable health care whatsoever.
"This is not exactly a question of gentrification; when your city has 70,000 abandoned buildings, it will not be gentrified anytime soon. Rather, it’s one of aesthetics. And in Detroit, you can’t talk aesthetics without talking ruin porn, a term that has become increasingly familiar in the city. Detroiters, understandably, can get touchy about the way descriptions and photographs of ruined buildings have become the favorite Midwestern souvenirs of visiting reporters."
Comapare Havana to NYC? NYC is one of the four major World Class cities on the planet. It would be foolhardy to compare Chicago to NYC, never mind Havana.
A much better comparison would be to look at the economic standing of Cuba vs. the U.S. and then compare cities based on that. Cuba sits pretty much in the middle of a list of the richest to poorest countries on the planet. Havana would be an accurate reflection of that. The people there are educated, and have access to affordable food, clothes and medical care. In fact, if the U.S. every lifts the embargo, Cuba would likely begin to rise above the economic standing it finds itself in.
America, by comparison, is one of the richest economic entities on the planet. However, despite having NYC to boast about, it also suffers from places like Detroit, Camden, East St. Louis and the lovely 9th Ward of New Orleans to be ashamed of. In *every* major city of the U.S. (including the beautiful Manhattan you love to boast about), you can find homeless people wandering the streets wearing rags for clothing and eating out of garbage cans like vermin, without any access to affordable health care whatsoever.
What is your point??? This thread started out showing pictures of Havana and you had to pop in to bash the US. I'm sure if I was so inclined to do so I could find equally depressing pictures somewhere in Canada. Canada has no homeless??? You find these same problems world over.
Nice hijack to what could of been an interesting thread and learning experience.
Nice hijack to what could of been an interesting thread and learning experience.
This was never an "interesting thread and learning experience", it was a Cuba bash from the onset. I merely remarked that the people in Havana (as portrayed in the OP's original photo) do not have it nearly as bad as the majority of people in Detroit proper, and that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw cinder blocks. It was some ignorant fool who laughably claimed that Detroit was in better shape than Havana, and that I should be comparing NYC to Havana if I want a proper perspective (!).
I have actually been to both places and was speaking from that point of reference, unlike the obvious anti-Cuban who started this thread in the first place. Seriously... If you want to actually learn about Cuba, I suggest travelling there by way of Canada - that is, if the so-called "Land of the Free" will allow you to without imposing some kind of fine and/or jail sentence for doing so.
BTW: The homeless in Canada are practically living at the Ritz compared with the abject misery I have seen in places like Chicago. The homeless there look like they belong in some Third World dungheap and not on the streets of one of the richest countries on the planet.
Some abandoned or semi-abandoned areas of Detroit look like that. Where the bulk of the people actually live- the regular people in the metro area- is as normal and modern looking as in any other city. Go across Havana's entire city/metro area and try to say that it is equal or better- no way. It is a poor, run down, 3rd world looking place with truly a much lower living standard. That in no way compares to a city that fell on hard times and has some sections that have been abandoned.
What is your point??? This thread started out showing pictures of Havana and you had to pop in to bash the US. I'm sure if I was so inclined to do so I could find equally depressing pictures somewhere in Canada. Canada has no homeless??? You find these same problems world over.
Nice hijack to what could of been an interesting thread and learning experience.
The point is that he/she is probably a commie or a socialist at best and feels offended when the truth is said. In much of the depressed areas of Detroit you hardly see people around, but most of Havana's crumbling areas are filled with people. There's no way to deny this. Its out in the open and, with everything, Detroit is much better than Havana.
Its always the same reaction from these people. I remember when I was a university student, a classmate got into a debate with another guy precisely about Cuba. She was speaking with so much authority about Cuba based on her 2 weeks vacation over there where she went where the government allowed her to go. You could had guessed that she won the argument until the guy said that he was born in Cuba and still has family that lives there and keeps contact with them. From that point forward her mouth remained shut. It was the funniest thing I had seen! Suddenly her expertise on Cuba was not worth sharing with everyone. Gee, I wonder why. lol
I travelled to Cuba extensively and enjoyed it's culture, pace, talking to people, nature. Dilapidation of buildings and things falling on the sidewalks at all times happens. But also much restoration is going on and there are absolutely wonderful architectural jewels in its full glory resurrected. Wood cobbled pavements in the old city parts. 16th & 17th century old buildings which are nowhere else to be found in the world in such abundance anymore. Plus the ingenuity to keep those cars running and add a unique flair and esthetic harmony. There is so much nature and so little pollution because of their lack of junk we are used to buy and throw away in our culture. I searched for litter, bottles, cans, wrappings, tires, or tossed plastic bags along the roads but there's nothing to be seen.
I also did not see the poverty, mental cases, and destitution of US homeless in the streets.
You feel trapped though, no doubt about it. It's an island and boredom attaches a very slow pace to life. Young people are itching for news and excitement. Yet there's little aggression towards their government. Surprisingly, considering that an uprising is what the US government actively encourages for 60+ years now. People fear much to be kicked out of their dilapidated homes and farms by the Miami-Cuban former landowners when they will return eventually. The living standards of African descendants is still the highest of all the Caribbean nations--which tells us something about the Jamaican and the Dominican Republic black population. So there's a national Stockholm syndrome for sure: Dislike the dictator but fear the alternative more.
Had my run-ins with their secret polit cops and regular cops. Nothing worse or better than our USA apparatus. But not as corrupt as the rest of Central America or the Caribbean. Haiti is supposed to be the oldest democracy in the area. And we know how that turned out. The USA has sponsored pretty much every dictator in these countries and it always caused some kind of revolution with bad endings and destruction.
As much as I wish Cuba a stable democracy, I know that the former landowners returning from Miami will not allow this to happen. And the US courts will back them all the way. Cuba will return to an even bigger whorehouse and casino mecca it was pre-Castro. A massive US tourism boom will be causing Jamaica and the Bahamas losing much of their revenue to Cubas unspoiled beaches, pristine diving, great vistas and cheap accommodations and food. Even Floridas tourism will suffer because of Cubas proximity to the mainland. Cuba as the biggest base for drug smuggling to USA & Canada will be opened. The population is utterly unprepared for such an onslaught as nobody living in Cuba today has a concept of consumerism, stress, high health care costs, housing shortage, drug culture, western politics, western media manipulation, etc. The nationally sponsored repression of the catholic church pushed people into voodoo, santeria and abakua--not supporting the basic family structure so prevalent and stabilizing the individual in other hispanic cultures.
Cuba is a giant social experiment with many bad sides, yet much good as well--surprising everybody that it lasts so long.
There is so much nature and so little pollution because of their lack of junk we are used to buy and throw away in our culture. I searched for litter, bottles, cans, wrappings, tires, or tossed plastic bags along the roads but there's nothing to be seen.
They can't afford to throw anything away. Everything has to be used well beyond its useful life. That's what happens in a country where the average wage is $12-$25 a month!
That's also the reason why Cubans steal meat right from the government owned meat factories.
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I also did not see the poverty, mental cases, and destitution of US homeless in the streets.
Tourists are not allowed to go anywhere in Cuba except places that are designated and beyond those areas only with a police escort. There's a reason why Cuba controls what its visitors see.
The Cuban police even identifies the Cubans right in front of the tourists and if they are not able to show they are legally allowed to mix with the tourists, they are treated like criminals. Cuba is the only country in the Caribbean where the local people are treated as if they are illegals in their own country.
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You feel trapped though, no doubt about it. It's an island and boredom attaches a very slow pace to life.
Don't know why the fact that it's an island has to do with anything, Cuba is pretty much as big as England. That's quite big, in fact big enough to forget that you're on an island as happens in the rest of the Greater Antilles. In the Lesser Antilles its different.
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Yet there's little aggression towards their government. Surprisingly, considering that an uprising is what the US government actively encourages for 60+ years now.
Why is that so surprising considering that Cuba is a dictatorship? Notice how Cubans rarely mention Fidel by his name? They are afraid to say anything.
But I don't blame them. Look what happens to protesters in Cuba:
This couple is arrested in front of their home because someone denounced them to the police for thinking differently from the government propaganda. They even say it in the video as the police struggle with them.
This is what happened to human rights activists:
Even lesbians are harassed by Cuban police. Not quite how tourists are treated.
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The living standards of African descendants is still the highest of all the Caribbean nations--which tells us something about the Jamaican and the Dominican Republic black population.
That's odd considering that the Cuban population in the Dominican Republic has grown so much that they already form the largest Cuban colony in the Caribbean outside Cuba (Puerto Rico's Cuban colony used to be the biggest one) and its composed by all types of Cubans (whites, mulattos, and blacks.)
Here is a mulatto Cuban that moved to the Dominican Republic, is studying medicine, and opened a new business teaching Dominicans how to dance Cuban salsa casino:
Here is a white Cuban (interviewed) that also moved to the Dominican Republic in search of a better life and made a name for himself in one of the television news channels:
Have to wonder why Cubans of all colors are migrating to the Dominican Republic while hardly any Dominicans are moving to Cuba. One would think that if life in Cuba was truly better, then people would vote with their feet.
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So there's a national Stockholm syndrome for sure: Dislike the dictator but fear the alternative more.
They will have to make do with capitalism. Raul Castro has been liberalizing the Cuban economy to degrees not seen before. Just a few weeks ago a new law was passed basically asking rich Cubans in Florida to invest in Cuba. Another glimpse:
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Had my run-ins with their secret polit cops and regular cops. Nothing worse or better than our USA apparatus.
The Cuban police treats tourists differently from the way they treat Cubans. If they spot a Cuban that was not authorized to be with you, the foreigner; the police will be much harder on the Cuban and his family than with you. This is common knowledge among Cubans in and out of Cuba.
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But not as corrupt as the rest of Central America or the Caribbean.
I don't know where you are getting that idea from.
Haiti is supposed to be the oldest democracy in the area. And we know how that turned out.
I don't know where you are getting your information, but how can Haiti e the oldest democracy in the area when Haiti's first free and fair election was in 1990? Haiti was founded as an empire (their first leader and hero of independence declared himself emperor for life), at times a kingdom, and at other times a republic with dictatorial regimes. Cuba before Castro was one of the richest places in the tropical world, well ahead of Haiti and most nations in this hemisphere except a handful, USA included.
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The USA has sponsored pretty much every dictator in these countries and it always caused some kind of revolution with bad endings and destruction.
Sounds more like Cuba's history. Ever heard of Chile? Guess when did that country's economic development started? They are already part of the OECD and their citizens can even enter the USA visa-free. Cuba would had been as Chile is now if it wasn't for the bearded guy that started his own dictatorship, backed by the USSR.
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Cuba will return to an even bigger whorehouse and casino mecca it was pre-Castro.
Oh my... you don't know? Ahem, Cuba is one of the main sex tourism destinations in the world.
A massive US tourism boom will be causing Jamaica and the Bahamas losing much of their revenue to Cubas unspoiled beaches, pristine diving, great vistas and cheap accommodations and food. Even Floridas tourism will suffer because of Cubas proximity to the mainland.
Cuba is already one of the largest tourist destinations in the Caribbean. Also, what you say is what everyone said when the Dominican Republic started to develop its tourism industry and guess what? There's enough to go around. All studies indicate that the number of people that will take part in international touristic activities will continue to be on the rise for many years to come.
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The population is utterly unprepared for such an onslaught as nobody living in Cuba today has a concept of consumerism, stress, high health care costs, housing shortage, drug culture, western politics, western media manipulation, etc.
Are you serious?
Cubans adapt very well to consumerism as soon as they step out of Cuba and those that have access to dollars on the island definitely have no problem with it.
Comapare Havana to NYC? NYC is one of the four major World Class cities on the planet. It would be foolhardy to compare Chicago to NYC, never mind Havana.
A much better comparison would be to look at the economic standing of Cuba vs. the U.S. and then compare cities based on that. Cuba sits pretty much in the middle of a list of the richest to poorest countries on the planet. Havana would be an accurate reflection of that. The people there are educated, and have access to affordable food, clothes and medical care. In fact, if the U.S. every lifts the embargo, Cuba would likely begin to rise above the economic standing it finds itself in.
America, by comparison, is one of the richest economic entities on the planet. However, despite having NYC to boast about, it also suffers from places like Detroit, Camden, East St. Louis and the lovely 9th Ward of New Orleans to be ashamed of. In *every* major city of the U.S. (including the beautiful Manhattan you love to boast about), you can find homeless people wandering the streets wearing rags for clothing and eating out of garbage cans like vermin, without any access to affordable health care whatsoever.
I can only go by human behavior. Large numbers of Cubans flee that nation. Very few of them attempt to return, and almost no migration occurs from other parts of the Caribbean or Latin America to Cuba. Why is this if Cuba is this great paradise?
Surely all those impoverished souls "suffering" in Miami would find their way to Cuba. Their presence would be a good propaganda coup for the Castro goons.
So let us compare Havana to San Juan if NYC offends you! Havana is easily one of the shabbiest looking capitals in the Americas, especially when we consider that it isn't a small portion of this city that looks like this. A bird's eye views shows that its a vast chunk of the city.
A previous poster told you that large numbers of buildings have been virtually abandoned and that building collapses aren't unusual. So why in this communist "paradise"? I will not get into the luxurious gated communities populated by the party faithful and the well connected elites in this crony capitalist dictatorship.
Every country in the world trades with Cuba, aside from the USA. Cuba benefits from billions of dollars of foreign investment from Asian, European and Latin American countries. Cuba has the second largest tourist industry behind the DR. The USA is Cuba's 4th largest trading partner, and its largest supplier of food products.
So spare me your tears about why Cuba is so poor. The only impact the embargo has is to give an incompetent and corrupt regime an excuse to explain the almost complete failure of its economy.
If Cubans are so well fed, clothed and housed, why is it that every plane from Miami to Cuba is filled with suitcases of basic medicines, food and clothing? This from RECENT Cuban migrants anxious to make life easier for their relatives!
Cubans are educated, but what use is this if they lack the right to freedom of expression? Or where doctors, who have invested many extra years of education, must subsist on less than US$30/month, unless they are lucky enough to be selected to work in another country. Making LESS than taxi drivers and other service workers in the hotel industry.
I. The living standards of African descendants is still the highest of all the Caribbean nations--which tells us something about the Jamaican and the Dominican Republic black population. .
Antonio and Caribny...GREAT posts..ty for your links as well
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