Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think this perspective is the exact opposite of the "Aztec pride" stance, which is to push for "Europeaness" and to view themselves as 1 or 2 shades lighter than they really are. Provided many Mexicans and Latin Americans have degree some degree of European ancestry that doesn't make them European. Latin American cultures have incorporated elements from European cultures, still their culture is not European. Latin America's culture is sui generis, it is a synthesis of many different things, mostly Indigenous, but also European and African. Most Latin AMerican are neither Indians, nor Europeans, nor Africans they are a kind of their own, with a culture of their own. Nothing comes out of a vacuum.
This is straight false, if anything they're mixed but with more European features than anything else. Europeans brought the concept of the nation state, all Latin American countries are influenced by Roman law, they have mostly European derived culture of politics, government, law and education. None of the Latin American countries would be what they are without Western influence. The only things I can think of that aren't wholly European in LatAm are the musical traditions, cuisine and some variations of religions. This gets less and less the more you go into the cities which are just as cosmopolitan as any European city. (I guess you could make a case for some individual LatAm nations such as Bolivia or Paraguay but as a whole, no way.)
And what do you say about the countries of Chile, Argentina, Brazil (mostly the South) and Uruguay? They are very heavily influenced by European immigration. You're right that it doesn't make them European but this insistence that the older Amerindian aspects of the nation's past should be honored above all is still silly.
I think the push comes from more Northern LatAm countries with a heavy population of Mestizos that try to push other LatAm nations into this Pan-American unity and to get them to see themselves as not being Euro-mixed at all.
When I was in the Southern Cone I was surprised by how less "Latino" I thought they were if we're going with this Pan-American theme. I thought Chile's culture was surprisingly influenced by their relations with the UK and how their population has a sizable British-German community that dominates their media, politics, and business. Chileans eat mince meat pie, liver and onions, drink tea, have what Brits call "elevenies" (once in Spanish), they go to the pubs, speak a butchered mix of Spanglish and their class and political system is very much modeled after the UK. In Argentina I was surprised by how Euro influenced it was and how the Italians and the French changed the cultural landscape. Buenos Aires really does deserve the title of the "Paris of South America."
If anything it's only NOW that I see Chile or Argentina looking any more "Latino" with the advent of the internet, more cultural appropriation, immigration from northern countries and the youth accepting broader Latino culture.
Seriously, the insecurities of some of the people in the Northern part of LatAM have to stop. I didn't even mention the Cuban American community or the Costa Ricans too, which are northern, but this idea that Latinos cannot acknowledge their European roots is silly. Anytime a Latino wants to acknowledge it and has room to, they're pushed back by insecure mostly US Latinos with a chip on their shoulder about being a minority in the US. They aren't "1 or 2" shades lighter, they ARE lighter. The Mexicans I saw in Monterrey were descendants of Polish, Czech, German and Spanish immigrants. And they aren't just a small minority either, they make up at least, AT LEAST, 20 percent of the population of Mexico. And that's being conservative. I am sure it's larger than that and they aren't any less Mexican than someone from Chiapas who mostly speaks Nahuatl.
Stop acting as though it's just "some degree" or that Latin Americans are just "trying to be white". Many are and can trace their ancestry back to Europe. The history of Latin America is no different than the history of the US; colonialism, imperialism, and immigration. European Latinos make up the SECOND most populous group behind Mestizos in LatAm, that's more than Afro-Latinos.
Please get over your insecurities. No LatAm isn't Europe, it's culture is not European in it's totality, I agree. There is a hybrid but to act as though LatAm merely incorporated some elements of Europe is laughable. LatAm countries are closer to European countries than African, Middle Eastern, or Asian countries.
Last edited by radiolibre99; 06-06-2017 at 03:18 PM..
Europeans brought the concept of the nation state, all Latin American countries are influenced by Roman law, they have mostly European derived culture of politics, government, law and education.
Like I said before nothing was born out of vacuum. Law and institution were shaped after those prevailing in European countries due to colonization. Same thing happened many Asian countries, that doesn't make them Europeans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
And what do you say about the countries of Chile, Argentina, Brazil (mostly the South) and Uruguay?
Brazil is very multiracial and mixed up. Saying it is just like European country is pushing it. The country has tremendous Afros and Indigenous population.
Chile and Argentina have a much greater indigenous factor than what they advertise for. Di Maria, Alexis Sanchez, Arturo Vidal, Marcus Rojo, Enzo Perez do not look European at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
Buenos Aires really does deserve the title of the "Paris of South America.
I understand Argentina sees Europe, in particular Paris as cultural reference and makes tremendous efforts to emulate it. Certainly Buenos Aires is less run down than other Latin American cities. However, rather allowing its own style and culture, it just copies. Quite a provincial attitude IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
I saw in Monterrey were descendants of Polish, Czech, German and Spanish immigrants. And they aren't just a small minority either, they make up at least, AT LEAST, 20 percent of the population of Mexico. And that's being conservative
What does descendant mean? Both parents immigrants, or some remote ancestor? What percentage of White does it take to be White for you? 50%, 70%, 90%? Do you think a Nordic American who considers Sicilians as non-White will have the same opinion? Does this question even matter?
I find it amusing that White Americans who are much Europeans than Latin Americans do not give 2 jacks about their European heritage. They are their own identity: Americans. Latin Americans can embrace their European roots if they please, but Europeans will not consider most of them as their people nonetheless. I just think it is sad to snob the whole indigenous heritage and act like it never existed.
Provided many Mexicans and Latin Americans have degree some degree of European ancestry that doesn't make them European.
For those who want, yes. Latino countries generally consider grandchildren of its nationals as citzens.
I'm a portuguese citzen. Many have this citzenship, or italian, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trebaruna
Brazil is very multiracial and mixed up. Saying it is just like European country is pushing it. The country has tremendous Afros and Indigenous population.
Latin Americans can embrace their European roots if they please, but Europeans will not consider most of them as their people nonetheless. I just think it is sad to snob the whole indigenous heritage and act like it never existed.
Most of them are mixed with europeans, specially latin europeans. Like I said before, yes they do consider us as citzens if we go to the consulate with the propper documents, if we're mixed to whatever human doesn't make any difference. Actualy there are South American italians, for exemple, that have more rights in Italy than someone that have been born in Italy that doesn't have italian parents.
Obviously the indigenous and african heritage is strong in our culture. The snob here is you.
Like I said before nothing was born out of vacuum. Law and institution were shaped after those prevailing in European countries due to colonization. Same thing happened many Asian countries, that doesn't make them Europeans.
Brazil is very multiracial and mixed up. Saying it is just like European country is pushing it. The country has tremendous Afros and Indigenous population.
Chile and Argentina have a much greater indigenous factor than what they advertise for. Di Maria, Alexis Sanchez, Arturo Vidal, Marcus Rojo, Enzo Perez do not look European at all.
I understand Argentina sees Europe, in particular Paris as cultural reference and makes tremendous efforts to emulate it. Certainly Buenos Aires is less run down than other Latin American cities. However, rather allowing its own style and culture, it just copies. Quite a provincial attitude IMO.
What does descendant mean? Both parents immigrants, or some remote ancestor? What percentage of White does it take to be White for you? 50%, 70%, 90%? Do you think a Nordic American who considers Sicilians as non-White will have the same opinion? Does this question even matter?
I find it amusing that White Americans who are much Europeans than Latin Americans do not give 2 jacks about their European heritage. They are their own identity: Americans. Latin Americans can embrace their European roots if they please, but Europeans will not consider most of them as their people nonetheless. I just think it is sad to snob the whole indigenous heritage and act like it never existed.
So much written and so little said. You're still under this impression that I meant to say that LatAm should view itself as European. I said that it should view itself as a hybrid and shouldn't deny it's European roots. Colonialism from Western Nations happened in Asia but no where did a Western language or their laws or a culture actually derived from a Western nation stick. Mexico is more European than Vietnam is even though both had a colonial past. This much should be obvious to you.
This isn't to say that LatAm is every bit as much as Europe but that European culture is much more embedded in the societies than you give it credit for and are simply disallowing the European element because most Latinos tend to be darker. But you're missing my point, for instance, the Dominican Republic is largely Afro Latino but when I visited I found their culture, laws, religion, and other things European derived and it was easier for my Italian and Spanish friends to navigate and get along with the locals. Obviously I don't mean it's European racially or culturally in it's totality but just that the European colonialism left a huge cultural imprint on Dominicans.
There are a few exceptions such as Bolivia which has a strong indigenous influence as much as European and their second language is a native tongue. I think that is what you're trying to imply about ALL of LatAM?
On Chile and Argentina, when you look at their soccer team as an impression of their total population, you're making as much as mistake as you would thinking that the French team represents all of France or the US national basketball team represents all of the US. Most of Chile and Argentinas best players come from the poorest barrios where most are mestizo. Chile is actually a castizo nation more than anything and is split I believe 40% mestizo, 60% casitzo or white. There are a lot of mestizo people in both countries but you also have a significant white population that are European ancestry that can trace their roots back only a few generations. Same with Southern Brazil.
And you're totally undermining the European-Mexicans in places such as Monterrey and Mexico City. They aren't just half white or part white. Many are as white as any Nordic person or Italian person, such as the current President of Mexico and his family. Again how do you not know this? Are you Mexican American, cus only an American would be this ignorant of Mexico and the Mexican population? There are A LOT of white people in Mexico and just because some ignorant gringo wouldn't consider them white doesn't make them any less European.
I think the issue here is that while you're trying to overplay the indigenous side of LatAm's people, you're severely downplaying the European roots which are still very much present in LatAm.
Seriously, you should consider traveling to LatAM more and getting out of the United States where is there not only a warped mentality on race in general, but Hispanic/Latinos have this warped view of themselves due to being a minority group in a largely white country.
For those who want, yes. Latino countries generally consider grandchildren of its nationals as citzens.
I'm a portuguese citzen. Many have this citzenship, or italian, etc
Most of them are mixed with europeans, specially latin europeans. Like I said before, yes they do consider us as citzens if we go to the consulate with the propper documents, if we're mixed to whatever human doesn't make any difference. Actualy there are South American italians, for exemple, that have more rights in Italy than someone that have been born in Italy that doesn't have italian parents.
Obviously the indigenous and african heritage is strong in our culture. The snob here is you.
Citizenship is a legal status. Do you consider yourself as Brazilian or Portuguese? Do people consider you as Portuguese or Brazilian in Portugal?
Seriously, you should consider traveling to LatAM more and getting out of the United States where is there not only a warped mentality on race in general, but Hispanic/Latinos have this warped view of themselves due to being a minority group in a largely white country.
I have traveled to Mexico City and Toluca, you're right about that it totally felt like Paris, Stockholm, Rome or Madrid. Maybe you should travel to Europe too, there you will be just like in Sao Paulo, Monterrey or Santiago of Chile. You'll even get a warm "welcome home" by your fellow countrymen
For those who want, yes. Latino countries generally consider grandchildren of its nationals as citzens.
I'm a portuguese citzen. Many have this citzenship, or italian, etc
Most of them are mixed with europeans, specially latin europeans. Like I said before, yes they do consider us as citzens if we go to the consulate with the propper documents, if we're mixed to whatever human doesn't make any difference. Actualy there are South American italians, for exemple, that have more rights in Italy than someone that have been born in Italy that doesn't have italian parents.
Obviously the indigenous and african heritage is strong in our culture. The snob here is you.
Yeah apparently the poster has never head of Mauro Camoranesi or Eder? One is Argentine-Italian and the other Brazilian-Italian. Both look mestizo but are every bit as accepted as Italian.
Seriously, I think the Trebaruna and the OP are advocating a Chicano/Mecha/Aztlan version of a Pan American unity or something.
I have traveled to Mexico City and Toluca, you're right about that it totally felt like Paris, Stockholm, Rome or Madrid. Maybe you should travel to Europe too, there you will be just like in Sao Paulo, Monterrey or Santiago of Chile. You'll even get a warm "welcome home" by your fellow countrymen
You're still missing my point. I can travel to Tulsa, OK and wouldn't look or feel anything like Paris or Rome but I know there is a European derived culture.
Are you just not getting a very simple concept that LatAm has European colonial roots. That doesn't make them the same as Europe in it's totality but that there is an element that you are denying in order to promote some sort of Aztlan/Mecha Chicano crap.
Good luck telling Miami Cubans or Argentines to think like you.
You're still missing my point. I can travel to Tulsa, OK and wouldn't look or feel anything like Paris or Rome but I know there is a European derived culture.
Are you just not getting a very simple concept that LatAm has European colonial roots. That doesn't make them the same as Europe in it's totality but that there is an element that you are denying in order to promote some sort of Aztlan/Mecha Chicano crap.
Good luck telling Miami Cubans or Argentines to think like you.
I'm not promoting anything, I'm not Chicano, nor Latin AMerican. I do not deny European influence in Latin America, I also say the indigenous influence shouldn't be denied either.
Miami Cubans and Argentinians can think whatever makes them feel better about themselves
Yeah apparently the poster has never head of Mauro Camoranesi or Eder? One is Argentine-Italian and the other Brazilian-Italian. Both look mestizo but are every bit as accepted as Italian.
Camoranesi and Eder accepted every bit as Italians?! You don't know much about Italians do you?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
