Purchasing a home and Flat roofs (Phoenix, Pima: selling a home, buyer, tile)

[kdog]

Originally Posted by nitram

Question. Why should a tile roof need maintenance?
Do tile roofs need maintenance? Can tile roofs be walked on?
Answer. The tiles are not 100% waterproof, the underlayment (felt) is what keeps the roof in a water tight condition. With the home settling, ground movement and heavy wind, the tile can shift and slip down exposing the underpayment to the sun and the weather. Then the tile running up the side of the home can loosen and fall.

Fine. Any roof is subject to failures. I had shingles blow off the roof of my 5 y/o house in NY and leak water into the house. It happens. However, there is no indication that this is in any way a normal occurrence of tile roofs. Modern roofing tiles have a cleat on them that hooks onto the battens such that they won't slip, even if they're not nailed.

In support of my points, here's what the National Association of Home Inspectors says about tile roofs.

"Under normal circumstances, properly installed tile roofs are virtually maintenance free. Unlike other roofing materials, roof tiles actually become stronger over time. Because of roof tile's superior quality and minimal maintenance requirements, most roof tile manufacturers offer warranties that range from 50 years to the lifetime of the structure."

Source: Roofing - InterNACHI: home inspection/inspector

Also, I don't think any tile roof installed in the past 50 years uses cement joints between tiles. The only time you see cement on tile roofs any more is to close off the lowest course of hip tiles.

[Bummer]

Bottom line, Roadrunner . . . there is no perfect roof.

My home is about 25 years old and although I've only owned it for the last 10 years, I believe the FLAT ROOF is original. With proper maintenance it should last for another 25.

As for insulation qualities . . . either type should be about equal.

A big plus for the flat roof . . . the Heat Pump or Air Conditioner plus a Swamp Cooler can be totally out of sight.

[wit-nit]

kdog
Well, I'm not going to argue the point with you. Someday maybe you'll get a chance to spend some time with a roofer here in the Phoenix area. Especially in Scottsdale. I've seen the problems 1st hand. My BIL does repairs only on roofs (30+ years) and I've seen a large percentage here needing repairs that have cracked cemented joints and tar paper that leaks needing repair under the tiles. Yes the tiles will last practically forever, if you don't walk on them and break them, but I stand by the fact that here in this area a lot of homes with tile roofs need repairing after 10-15 years.
S'funny I was at my dentist yesterday and we were just talking about how the medical complex he's in, with it's 20 year old roof, has had so many repairs lately and most all the hundreds of cement valleys etal needed to be replaced.
My BIL also does work for Ken Meade Realty in Sun City, for realtors that have homes for sale after they get a contract on them and inspected by independent home inspectors before the close of escrow, you'd be surprised how many tile roofs need to be repaired before they can close on them.
Another thing here too is tile roofers only nail down every 3rd tile, so when heavy windy storms blow through, many tiles come loose or blow off tearing the paper with them.

[roadrunner1]

I appreciate the comments, we don't have the flat roofs here in the east and I like that stye of home. Cheers!

[kdog]

Originally Posted by nitram

Another thing here too is tile roofers only nail down every 3rd tile, so when heavy windy storms blow through, many tiles come loose or blow off tearing the paper with them.

Well there you go. My qualifying words were "properly installed", so this probably symptomatic of why you guys are seeing so many problems down there.

I asked a good friend in Florida who's run roofing companies for the past 30 years, and here's what he said:

"when we do the tile roofs here we put down a peel n'stick membrane or hot mop a layer of roll roofing down. That will last until a hurricane comes along or about 40 + years. But thats because of the rains we get here. Tiles last forever but do not waterproof the house, they protect whats underneath and add to the appearance of the house. Here the tiles are screwed down or set in foam, have to resist 120-140 MPH wind uplift."

So I guess we're both right. I stand behind the fact that a properly installed tile roof will outlast the building it's put on, and you are correct that tile roofs don't last for squat in the Phoenix area because of shoddy workmanship. That's a shame.

[roadrunner1]

I believe you are right in saying "properly installed". The problem is how would you check or have a home inspector check that the roofing has been properly installed?

[wit-nit]

kdog,
Apparently you misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that in the Phoenix Metro area many tile roofs, and after short period of time (15-20 years) they need the underlayment replaced. There is a history of underlayment failure in AZ. In order to replace the underlayment the tiles need to be removed and re-installed which is the same as getting a new roof. I'm not an expert, my brother in law is, and ocassionally I go with him to see and learn what goes on in the roof repair business.
Here is a web site from local roofing company that explains the situation with tile roofs in a better manner than I c can. Don't get me wrong, tiles roofs are great, look good and will last a long time if correctly installed. They are installed differently here than in Florida. We don't have the hurricane requirements as they do in FL.
Check this out:Tile Roofing. Lyons Roofing Repair Phoenix. The Tile Roofing Experts. (http://www.lyonsroofing.com/tile_roofing_roof_repair_tr.html - broken link)

[kdog]

Nitram, you're right. That site certainly does back up what you're saying about tile roofs only being good for 15 years in Phoenix, regardless of how they're installed. If that's true, that's really awful. So, what material does have the best lifetime in Phoenix? We've already established flat roofs are hit and miss. Asphalt shingle? Tin?

[wit-nit]

Basically it's a crapshoot, whatever appeals to the buyer I guess. I would say the newer type 30-40-50 year shingles would be the best bet. Though in the AZ desert you should expect only a 1/2 lifetime for any roofing material regardless what the mfg says.

[pegleg smith]

I ain't buying it Nitram. There are 100+ year old adobe houses in the desert that have the original mission tile roofs and those roofs still protect the structure. An old friend of mine in El Centro, Ca. was raised in one of them. The adobe needs repaired once in a while but the roof has never needed to be replaced. Maybe because it was installed before that membrane and cement procedure was established.

Tile roofs are capable of ventilating the heat through the tiles, if installed properly and at the correct angles. Tiles do not work on a 3 in 12 roof, a 4 in 12 roof is marginal, but do work well on steeper pitched roofs.

The original question was about flat roofs vs pitched. I would recommend houses with pitched roofs. Properly installed, ventilated, and insulated pitched roofs will give fewer problems than flat roofs. The A/C will not have to work as hard. It is very much harder, if even possible, to vent the heat out from flat roofs. Foam does help, and I have seen it applied to a lot of flat roofs in the desert. The problem with flat roofed houses is, if the house does get air conditioned, the duct has to be run exposed across the roof. This duct needs to be very well insulated to work properly. It is extremely hard to seal roof penetrations through foamed roofs. It sometimes requires refoaming the roof.