Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Uh, no. China is a single-party dictatorship with severely reduced civil liberties. The criticism is well-founded. I know that you will defend China regardless of its actions, but the rest of the world doesn't care about protecting your feelings, and the rest of the world doesn't care about protecting 'Chinese core values' if those values actively oppress its people.
You see, when people protest in large numbers - to the extent that entire roads are impassable - then you have a problem. The number one priority of a nation state is supposed to be about making its citizens happy - but the Chinese state does no such thing for Hong Kong or China in general, and the people of Hong Kong are making that explicitly clear - and the only reason no such thing is happening on the mainland is because they will more than likely get shot.
Sorry if it upsets you, and I'm so, so sorry if I come across as an self-righteous Westerner - but I don't care. Denying people the right to self-determination, and denying people the freedom of speech or freedom to protest, will never sit right with me, or anyone else in the West. We have fought so hard to get the civil liberties we have today and it's a repellent sight to see the civil liberties we take advantage of every day being outright denied to over a billion people, and it saddens me to see Chinese propaganda trolls such as yourself defending the Chinese state regardless of what it does.
Hong Kong is too good for China.
Typical arrogance...
I don't care what you think either. Westerners always think they are correct and have the best ideology, and I believe it has something to do with their tradition of Christianity.
China will always be China, and it will be the first real non-westernized developed country in human history, which I like. This is truly where "diversity" stands up.
China has many problems and I don't like China government for many reasons. However, westerners will never love China as much as we Chinese do (in fact many want China to fail), so often times it's not a good idea to listen to them.
The best solution for Hong Kong would be independence but that is not realistic.
I would also be in favor of Hong Kong getting independence as well, making it similar to Singapore, a city-state. I would be in favor of the same for Macau.
Sadly, China isn't going to let that happen. It won't happen without help.
It is interesting that the UK was actually have honoured their agreement since it was made so long ago and not with the Communist regime. They essentially handed over millions of people to a totalitarian regime without much concern for their rights. Given that the UK has broken so many other treaties - ie. with First Nations - certainly they could have managed another one...
China is also a dictatorship that refuses to allow the people of Tibet, Taiwan, Macau, Hong Kong, and Xinjiang the internationally accepted right of self determination.
Let them keep Xinjiang. Can't trust a jihadi either. They might cut off your head. Communists are actually good at extreminating islamic radicals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish
Anyone who does not agree with the US (and UK etc.) is immediately labeled as a dictatorship, or terrorist.
Talking about propaganda.
Keeping unified (大一统） is the core of Chinese culture, which will never change. China has always been a multi-national country too. If you try to interpret events in China from a western perspective, a lot of things don't make sense.
Keeping unified is not the core of Chinese culture! It is deception and success. Never yes, never no. You need to read the classics such as Romance of the 3 kingdoms and Outlaws of the marsh, the 7 military classics of ancient china, and lao tzu. I think you need a Chinese perspective that isn't filtered through red maoist nationalism. Everything makes total sense. China (zhoung) middle center. The world is supposed to pay tribute to china. Everyone is a barbarian except the han.
If someone doesn't agree with you, you just seem to get angry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jas182
But Hong Kong doesn't wont China, at least communism! If the Chinese government doesn't listen to all those states, or provinces, or... whatever China calls them (I call them suppressed states!), then China will split up. It's just like the British Empire, if Westminster listened more to the overseas territories and where less racist, then Britain could still be an empire now! Same with China, if they don't change into a democracy, then the states that do want it will leave China! That's what I think anyway. On the other hand, one could ague that some countries that are over populated need a dictatorship. For example, India, a country with a population that will takeover China's at some point within the next decade or two, is a democracy and is filled with corruption. So I could perhaps understand that a little...
I think the red flag and the CCP are the problem. If the country actually slowly reformed and possibly had a multipary system, taiwan would join in a heartbeat. I don't think Hong kong would have much of a problem with it although they do have a superiority complex to mainlanders. Southies don't like northies.
Overpopulation is not an excuse. the root of the problem is education. India was at least able to vote out their corrupt government of 60 years. Look at modi now, he's a freaking rock star. Xi can't even consolidate his power. He doesn't even know when to end his purge and he may not even have control the PLA. With a free press, you expose stuff like cardboard in pork buns, or baby milk powder poisoining. you can't do that in a dictatorship. People are expected to live in fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here
Uh, no. China is a single-party dictatorship with severely reduced civil liberties. The criticism is well-founded. I know that you will defend China regardless of its actions, but the rest of the world doesn't care about protecting your feelings, and the rest of the world doesn't care about protecting 'Chinese core values' if those values actively oppress its people.
You see, when people protest in large numbers - to the extent that entire roads are impassable - then you have a problem. The number one priority of a nation state is supposed to be about making its citizens happy - but the Chinese state does no such thing for Hong Kong or China in general, and the people of Hong Kong are making that explicitly clear - and the only reason no such thing is happening on the mainland is because they will more than likely get shot.
Sorry if it upsets you, and I'm so, so sorry if I come across as an self-righteous Westerner - but I don't care. Denying people the right to self-determination, and denying people the freedom of speech or freedom to protest, will never sit right with me, or anyone else in the West. We have fought so hard to get the civil liberties we have today and it's a repellent sight to see the civil liberties we take advantage of every day being outright denied to over a billion people, and it saddens me to see Chinese propaganda trolls such as yourself defending the Chinese state regardless of what it does.
Hong Kong is too good for China.
PRC abused Hong Kong. They needed its financial expertise. Now Hong Kong is like a annoying old used up prostitute. Shanghai is built up and Hong Kong cinema is dead. Wuxia fails to impress now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettafish
Typical arrogance...
I don't care what you think either. Westerners always think they are correct and have the best ideology, and I believe it has something to do with their tradition of Christianity.
China will always be China, and it will be the first real non-westernized developed country in human history, which I like. This is truly where "diversity" stands up.
China has many problems and I don't like China government for many reasons. However, westerners will never love China as much as we Chinese do (in fact many want China to fail), so often times it's not a good idea to listen to them.
you do care what we think. Otherwise, you would not be a here spouting red nationalism and the benefits of authoritarianism.
And Christianity is dead in the west except for evangelicals. Current western ideology is based off the enlightenment which is based off separation of church and state. christianity is spreading like wildfire in the PRC because the CCP is godless, materialism is rampant, and buddhism no longer appeals to weak willed. Probably end like Africa. Also, not every westerner is christian!
PRC will not be china. It is westernizing. The CCP wears western suits. They bring in and copy western intellectual property. They are adopting western religion. Communism itself was a western invention. Chinese drink coke and eat at Mcdonalds. Xi's daughter goes to Harvard. There is no diversity. There is only the PARTY and who controls the gun!
You love the PRC government. Otherwise, you'd be getting tortured in the labor camps or protesting with the HKers. Westerners don't like red flag. They didn't like it since the October revolution in russia. They had to fight wars against it. Plus, no one likes seeing Tibet being occupied by the PLA.
Now the PRC is being a bully trying to collect tribute from the nations the around it. They still support North Korea. They are poking the Japanese in the eye and having them rearm. you don't poke a tiger in the eye even if you are a dragon. Japan invaded china twice and it was terrible each time. Stop trying to create WW3!
Also, if you loved China so much, you'd still be living there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61
The best solution for Hong Kong would be independence but that is not realistic.
^^^ It's always interesting to hear some westerners teach Chinese people what Chinese culture is.
It reminds us how arrogant and ignorant they are on this issue, and thus make ourselves more determined.
Usually they speak no word of Chinese and have no immediate access to Chinese culture and history, by the way. The foreigners who do speak Chinese are much more humble.
I'm not against HKers' protests at all. In fact I think there should be more protests in China.
However, if some westerners advocate (not just talking) Hong Kong "independence" in Hong Kong or China, I hope they get arrested because it violates the law of Hong Kong and China.
I'm not against HKers' protests at all. In fact I think there should be more protests in China.
However, if some westerners advocate (not just talking) Hong Kong "independence" in Hong Kong or China, I hope they get arrested because it violates the law of Hong Kong and China.
Actually I don't think it is against the law in Hong Kong to advocate independence. Article 23 of the Basic Law states that China's security and anti-sedition laws do not apply in Hong Kong, and that the Hong Kong government should draft their own laws on this topic. Last time the legislature tried to create these laws was in 2003 and public protests and outcry (people thought it was too vague and gave the goverment/police too much extra-judiciary power) forced them to shelve the law indefinitely.
Not that there are any serious attempts at independence in HK, but you can try if you want :-)
The people of Hong Kong should have a UN sponsored referendum that allows them to choose between being British, being Chinese, or being independent of both. Period. It's called self determination.
Most (if not all) of the remaining British Overseas Territories have become more or less completely self governing except for defense and foreign affairs over the last 15-20 years. The role of the British appointed governor is largely ceremonial although he/she does have some political power.
I think it's like this. What if California started protesting heavily against something DC was trying to do to California. Maybe DC decided that JEB BUSH is going to run California from now on. People in California protest.
That doesn't mean that suddenly California should either go back to Mexico, or it should vote to become sovereign. It basically just means that DC should reconsider forcing Jeb Bush as Governor, and just let them choose their own Governor.
If the Chinese government doesn't listen to all those states, or provinces, or... whatever China calls them (I call them suppressed states!), then China will split up. It's just like the British Empire,
No, that's totally different. The British Empire basically ruled over other nations. They weren't really British British. They were really Indian or Malaysian or whatever they were.
No. Hong Kong is Chinese and should remain Chinese. Britain never gave Hong Kong democracy either so they are being a bit hypocritical now.
I think the idea when the Sino-British Joint Declaration was signed was that, by 2047, the rest of China would have caught up with Hong Kong. I still think this is true. China will not have a dramatic revolution like the Revolutions of 1989. It will slowly transition to democracy. And what is playing out right now in Hong Kong is part of that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
