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You are coming along nicely, Chango . . . I am optimistic. Very well said!
You make it sound like I'm in training or something.
I'm just trying to be more objective about the subject; this battle between science and religion on the forum is getting silly and is not going to make any of us smarter.
There are plenty of historical and scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed, although we cannot proof that he was God, neither could anyone proof there is no God.
There are plenty of historical and scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed, although we cannot proof that he was God, neither could anyone proof there is no God.
Nope. You have no proof of anything stated above... "historical," "scientific" or otherwise. Nothing.
You make it sound like I'm in training or something.
Forgive this old man, Chango . . . 30 years as a Professor is a hard habit to break.
Quote:
I'm just trying to be more objective about the subject; this battle between science and religion on the forum is getting silly and is not going to make any of us smarter.
That is what I was actually trying to acknowledge and appreciate, Chango . . . your willingness to be objective is very rare here in the forum.
I don't believe but that argument for no god is weak.
If there really was an all-powerful being with an eternity to do his thing, wouldn't it make sense that he would set the game up in a way that actually worked, i.e. the universe as we understand it scientifically?
No. For an [allegedly] omnipotent being, it makes no difference if the universe it creates requires constant intervention or if it runs fine on its own. It takes exactly 0% of the effort from an infinitely powerful being to make it work and maintain it either way.
We do "prove" that He cannot exist and need not traverse the Cosmos nor have omnisicence ourselves. As Victor Stenger notes, there should exist mountains of evidence for Him and none appears, I add, then we naturalists can state flatly that here where absence of evidence is evidence of absence, thus we make no argument from ignorance.
Mine and others' arguments eviscerate theism.
As an ignostic/igtheist, I note that He is no more than a square circle as the thread the ignostic- Ockham explains. When something blasts logic, then it cannot exist as square circles and married bachelors cannot exist.
Certainly, theists are in their epistemic rights to find us wrong-headed, but we do rely on facts, never faith.
Some theists rely on the argument from ignorance when they declare that none can prove or disprove His very existence, but nevertheless, they believe.For more on our naturalist arguments see the closed thread why believe in God?
Thanks to all who befriend me and add to my reputation!
Last edited by Carneades-SkepticGriggsy; 10-20-2012 at 09:46 PM..
Reason: extra
If you're whole concept of another group of people is predicated on the fact that you can't fathom why they do and think what they think and do, maybe, just maybe, you should do more reading and listening, and less speaking, theorizing, and talking about it.
Just sayin'.
Your views have merit, at least as much as anyone's, but you could benefit from actually speaking from experience, instead of with bias and straw-marn arguments. A prepared Christian apologist will absolutely destroy presumptions like yours, unless you have something more substantial to say.
We do "prove" that He cannot exist and need not traverse the Cosmos nor have omnisicence ourselves. As Victor Stenger notes, there should exist mountains of evidence for Him and none appears, I add, then we naturalists can state flatly that here where absence of evidence is evidence of absence, thus we make no argument from ignorance.
Mine and others' arguments eviscerate theism.
Of course since you write off the bulk of evidence as "just natural" . . . it does tend to make you think there is no evidence. It is all a matter of defining what IS and is not evidence . . . which you and your cohort do a pretty lousy job of, IMO. "A little knowledge is . . ." C'est la vie.
Those prepared apologists would just answer with logical fallacies, making more sophistry, I dare say, as I comprehend their modus operandi. The fine-tuning argument exhumes that they do misinterpret the evidence. They declaim about the parameters permitting life. Carneades' atelic argument belies that: they beg the question of directed outcomes! As Douglas Adams pictures their argument with his puddle argument, they look silly: a puddle notes that some intent had it come to be, ignoring that some one made a hole in which rainwater fell. The only intent-human- was for the hole for a post. No intent but just a meteorlogical cause caused the rainfall. We evolved due to randomness and natural selection, both acts of necessity, not divine intent for us to evolve with them serving as the way the intent would ensue. William Lane Craig in his Kalam misinterprets the evidence for the Big Transformation of what already existed as the complete beginning of the Cosmos. Jewry,with help from others saves itself the evidence notes, again no warrant for divine intent-that misinterpretation. And no, Alvin Plantinga's greater good and unknown arguments do not exonerate the Deity from letting the Holocauset happen, as they are only arguments from ignorance. What a misinterpretation of the evidence that Israel came about due to divine intent. Theists misinterpret the evidence for an onotological grounding for morality, which grounds itself in humanity, with the notion that God grounds it. But, hardly as the Euthyphro notes. And no evidence comes forward for His nature being good as that begs the question, despite Aquinas. And with all the sects, He would speak with a forked tongue! Thus, I run rings around those prepared apologists! I fathom their prattling all too well. Yes, I shall do more studying to overcome their supercilious argumentation. Thank you both.
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