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Any religion is valid if it helps people behave correctly. I would rather a person who is mentally ill with a gun use religion to help control his impulses, rather than just go on a shooting rampage. Some people need written rules more than others. For that reason, all religions are valid. Yes is my answer to your questions.
However is not a person so mentally ill that they might use a religion to justify that shooting ramoage? Seems like that has happened too often to think otherwise. Does religion work on the mentally ill to stop I pluses that cause harm to themselves or others? Also I know for a fact that in Canada we already have a rule telling folks that going on a shooting rampage is not nice. It's a written rule for everyone regardless of their religion or lack of one.
With all the religious wars in history, the non religious wars fought by religious men, the atrocities conducted by religious orders for example the Residential Schools in Canada, or the slaughter of Muslims by Christians in the former Yugoslavia or the genocide or near genocide of native people in the Americas can we truly say that religion has helped people behave correctly?
Perhaps if all the religions got along, did not teach that they were the one true one and did not spread hate and lies about each other and about non believers then maybe you would have a valid point. But they don't for the most part.
However is not a person so mentally ill that they might use a religion to justify that shooting ramoage? Seems like that has happened too often to think otherwise. Does religion work on the mentally ill to stop I pluses that cause harm to themselves or others? Also I know for a fact that in Canada we already have a rule telling folks that going on a shooting rampage is not nice. It's a written rule for everyone regardless of their religion or lack of one.
With all the religious wars in history, the non religious wars fought by religious men, the atrocities conducted by religious orders for example the Residential Schools in Canada, or the slaughter of Muslims by Christians in the former Yugoslavia or the genocide or near genocide of native people in the Americas can we truly say that religion has helped people behave correctly?
Perhaps if all the religions got along, did not teach that they were the one true one and did not spread hate and lies about each other and about non believers then maybe you would have a valid point. But they don't for the most part.
So you admit that written rules are good, right? Didn't all rules come from religion originally? The only difference is that "God declares..." has been removed from the beginning of each rule. Even the US founding documents mention the divine Creator.
I'm still not sure what the problem is with religion. People are going to believe in it whether atheists like it or not.
Any religion is valid if it helps people behave correctly. I would rather a person who is mentally ill with a gun use religion to help control his impulses, rather than just go on a shooting rampage. Some people need written rules more than others. For that reason, all religions are valid. Yes is my answer to your questions.
So it doesn't matter to you if the religion is true, just whether it is effective?
So you admit that written rules are good, right? Didn't all rules come from religion originally? The only difference is that "God declares..." has been removed from the beginning of each rule. Even the US founding documents mention the divine Creator.
I'm still not sure what the problem is with religion. People are going to believe in it whether atheists like it or not.
Yes and most are pretty universal despite which religion of that region, however even non religious areas use the same rules? Rules that have evolved a man moved from hunter gathers to farmers to city states to nations, from long before any current religion came into being.
If rules come from religion should we still have slavery, the stoning of adulterers and the beheading of those who change their religion, what about the killing of witches?
The problems with religion is when it is used as a weapon rather than a tool. For example the teaching that people of other religions as well perhaps even especially atheist can have no morals, are not real people of this country, cannot really love each other or be trusted. Perhaps you might think that is no big deal but if you are not of the majority it sure can be. It was religious hatred that the Nazi killed all those Jews as Christians hating Jews has a long tradition in Europe and when those Jews tried leaving they were turned away by Americans and Canadians as inferior people.
When religion tries to rule the country, making it near impossible for non religious to succeed or when it decides that science must agree with its doctrine or it is false and cannot be taught or taught wrong 0lus have religious doctrine taught with it it is a problem.
The Geneva Convention is from man not from a rule by God, certainly nothing the OT god taught. When religions foster hatred of gays and take that hatred on missionary work teaching others to hate gays that is a problem (Uganda from American missionaries ).
Most people of religion are not a problem. It's those who wish to impose their religion on everything and everyone is a major problem. The ugly head of fundamentalist Islam has set back societies since the early 70s as well as centuries before or what happened to Europe when only Christian thoughts were allowed and knowledge from the Greeks and Romans was abandoned because it did not agree with the Bible. It could happen again and to a small degree I is happening in some areas of the States where an increasing percentage of the population do not know or understand science.
You ignore each of the problems I have pointed out and jumped to new reasons to think religion is valid. If I ignore all the loses my favorite sports team was undefeated last year. In my word probably half the people around me are believers and for the most part I don't know what they believe or who they are. It's not hidden, there are churches everywhere however they don't think the city or country's laws need reflect their religion nor do they bash other beliefs. So to me there us little or no harm from religion but some have tried very hard to make their religion run the public sphere and that is outright wrong.
My question to you is do you believe a person can be good with no influence from religion?
Very good, badlander. You saved me a post. Ozzy is a neat example of someone who actually doesn't bother much with religion, trying to excuse and validate it because after all, they both believe in God and we atheists don't. It's understandable, but unfortunate, because (quite apart from trying to flog a dead argument) how these "agnostics" should really be thinking is "We both believe in a society where you can have any theistic belief, or none, and the religions don't". I wish they could see that they belong in the Irreligion camp, but, too often, they don't. Godfaith blinds them to everything else.
Any religion is valid if it helps people behave correctly. I would rather a person who is mentally ill with a gun use religion to help control his impulses, rather than just go on a shooting rampage. Some people need written rules more than others. For that reason, all religions are valid. Yes is my answer to your questions.
You contradict yourself.
"Any religion that is valid if it helps people behave correctly" is not the same as "all religions are valid".
So you admit that written rules are good, right? Didn't all rules come from religion originally?
No. The ancient Greeks came up with a more humane moral outlook by rational thought. The Romans incorporated this into their system because it was a benefit for society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
I'm still not sure what the problem is with religion. People are going to believe in it whether atheists like it or not.
Which is fine up to a point, so long as they stop fling planes into building, or trying to replace science with 'Godidit'.
And any religious system that thinks the world is going to end in the next 20 years are not going to care about the environment. My children and grandchildren are going to have to live in that world.
These "arguments" are nothing more than criticism of society. They don't change things or actually accomplish anything.
I don't "excuse" religion. I just know that it has never been responsible for any of the things it has been blamed for. Even your beloved Penn Jillette has made the same observation about religion helping to stop people from committing atrocious crimes. I heard him say it in an interview. Yet I doubt any atheist would ever attack his statements.
I know that people do things because they want to do them. Blame society, which religion is merely a reflection of. Atrocities have been done by atheists probably to the same degree that that are a part of society. A bad person can be reformed and become a better person who doesn't desire to murder people, yet his religion can remain the same during both stages of his life. How would you account for that with your wonderful atheistic logical arguments?
How come you never criticize atheists when they commit atrocities? It's pure hypocrisy isn't it?
Last edited by OzzyRules; 06-06-2018 at 05:02 AM..
My question to you is do you believe a person can be good with no influence from religion?
Yes.
But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Most people believe in organized religion because that is how the brains work for most people. They can't help it. If the Bible didn't exist something else would come out that would take its place. The intention of the Bible authors was to show that God didn't need written rules, that those who followed and made them (tree of knowledge of good and evil) were in error. But people misunderstood the Bible and decided to use it to create their own organized religion. That was the Old Testament.
Then Jesus came along and told them they didn't need those rules, again. Paul confirmed that. Yet, what happened? People used Jesus and Paul to create a new organized religion.
These "arguments" are nothing more than criticism of society. They don't change things or actually accomplish anything.
I don't "excuse" religion. I just know that it has never been responsible for any of the things it has been blamed for. Even your beloved Penn Jillette has made the same observation about religion helping to stop people from committing atrocious crimes. I heard him say it in an interview. Yet I doubt any atheist would ever attack his statements.
I know religion HAS been responsible for many of the things it has been blamed for.
As for Penn Jillette, or any other atheist who makes a stupid remark, I will (and do) attack their statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
I know that people do things because they want to do them. Blame society, which religion is merely a reflection of. Atrocities have been done by atheists probably to the same degree that that are a part of society.
People often do things based on their group morality. See the Stanford prison experiment, zb. So any out group, especially if it is hated, will be seen as the enemy. And groups include politics, religion, skin color, football clubs, usw.
And yes, atheism could also lead to this. But the funny thing is I do not hear of gangs of atheists burning people at the stake, or flying planes into buildings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
A bad person can be reformed and become a better person who doesn't desire to murder people, yet his religion can remain the same during both stages of his life. How would you account for that with your wonderful atheistic logical arguments?
People can become bad (or good) regardless of their religion. What is to explain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
How come you never criticize atheists when they commit atrocities? It's pure hypocrisy isn't it?
You do not understand, therefore we are hypocrites?
It is rather simple. You see, religious people kill for their beliefs. Atheists kill for other reasons, such as arguments over parking spaces.
Here is where you link to the league of militant atheists (as if Stalin only killed religious people) while ignoring the many more people he had killed because he thought they were a threat to his power base.
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