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Warning, poorly constructed and aimless rant ahead.
For lack of a better forum I wasn't sure where to put this rant, so here it is. As a "non-believer" or "atheist" I figure this is the best place although both of the quoted terms are silly and meaningless to me. There is no humanist sub-forum and with good reason, I figure most of the forum topics if not all relate to humanity.
So I am a big worrier because I am me, and the whole Thai cave rescue has had my stomach turning since I first read about it. I wanted them to get them kids out so bad. At first I was pretty mad at the coach for bringing those kids in there, but I was 25 once and I was pretty stupid... I'm still pretty stupid actually. But this guy kept those kids alive long enough for some heroes to help so I have to give him some credit. Yes his choices has cost a man his life, he will have to live with that.
I'm semi-relieved right now at the reports that all team members and coach are out of the cave, but would like all rescuers and doctors out of there too. I'm happy for the families and proud of the people involved pitching in to help. EVEN Elon Musk. Sure his contraption he offered didn't seem practical to me. It seemed too large and inflexible for the terrain they reportedly needed to traverse in getting the team out. At least he tried SOMETHING, I did NOTHING but hoped. I'm sorta claustrophobic and don't like the idea of drowning. This is where I start to feel disgust...
I'm fully aware of how useless I am to those kids trapped in the cave as bad as I want them out. Today, with the news of them all being successfully extracted from the cave, I've been taking in the reactions on the news and on CD. "Thank our highest mighty god" or simply "thank god" (literal interpretation of the term of course), just leaves a bad taste. The brave divers risking it all in there get their due credit from me. No divinity is working through them, THEY are risking the possibility of a horrible death to save others. What a complete cop-out for people to say it's in gods hands or repeatedly saying they are praying for the trapped soccer team as if that makes any difference. That makes the same difference as me hoping for their safe return from the cave here in the States.
They are selling them short... the divers, the doctors, the paramedics, the volunteers in every facet of the operation who got off their asses and pitched in to help in some way. These are amazing and beautiful people. So while I am elated these kids are out, why is someone gonna thank god now?? What did this fictional creation of mans weaker neurons have to do with helping at all?? ZERO.
So when a plane goes down and 99 people die but that 1 "miracle" child lives, it is thank god... When 13 human lives are saved from a slow painful death in a cave I am to thank god? When a diver loses his life? No way. I thank the people who actually did something. Not me, not my prayers, my well wishes, or my hopes. Those people like that diver willing to give it ALL for the greater good of humanity.
Wish I could articulate better, but I just cringe with disgust when I read this virtue signaling drivel. Sorry I wasted anyone's time who bothered to read this. I am happy for the families of these children today, but the REALITY of the price to save them was a heroes death. No prayers hopes or divine intervention got them out, people did.
I'm just happy they're out. Doesn't matter a whit to me if people think prayers to a divinity helped make it so. I think it possible that the millions of thoughts of concern and hope from around the world may have given the rescuers and the lads a little extra courage and stamina and helped ease their fears.
I thought I was going to really dislike your post, but instead I mostly agree with it.
I have watched this drama unfold with great interest because I lived in Thailand for a couple of years and, before that, spent about a dozen long summers there. I've visited many Thai caves because I have degrees in geology and because I'm Buddhist, and most Thai caves are considered to be sacred places and often have Buddha statues in them. In fact, I came to the conclusion that this may have been one of the caves I once visited...in a July...at the beginning of the rainy season (at least the cave in this specific area that I visited was also very near "Sleeping Lady Mountain", which I saw mentioned in a couple of the news stories). And, lastly, because I'm now a retired educator who spent over 30 years working with kids roughly the same age as these kids.
Two things which annoyed me were -- first -- posters in the current events part of the forum who kept trying to compare how American parents and government handle things, as compared to how parents and governments handle things in completely different cultures. Thai caves are not like Mammoth Caves or Carlsbad Caverns; it's much more a proceed at your own risk scenario in Thailand...it's hardly a nanny state. And second, I refuse to excuse the soccer coach for incredibly bad decision making which made it likely that twelve children were going to die, and that one rescue worked did die. And, as a Buddhist, I excuse him even less because one of the foundations of Buddhism is mindfulness...and as a former monk, he ought to be living that. Going into a dangerous cave in questionable weather is not showing one iota of mindfulness.
I don't believe in miracles. But that they rescued these children is a miracle...but not in the religious sense. I go down to two secondary definitions of miracles -- "a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences" or "an amazing...achievement, or...outstanding example of something (in this case, people working together under extraordinary circumstances to beat the odds).
I think it's culturally ignorant to "thank god" when something happens to people who are not believers in god. These parents and children are Buddhists. Not Christians. Thanking god in a case like this is like saying we're better than you and more 'right' than you, so we'll thank our god, even though what's happening is in a country where belief in god is not inherent in everyday life.
If there was a god, and he wanted to intervene, he shouldn't have let the event happen in the first place. This turned out as good as it did, praise Buddha (LOL) because human beings from different countries banded together and proclaimed that we are going to risk a horrible death to save these twelve children. Nothing more. Nothing less. So I give all my praise to those divers and others who actually went into the cave and risked their lives, as well as support personnel who made the work of the divers possible. It was an incredible HUMAN endeavor.
When Justify completed its Triple Crown win this year, the first words out of jockey Mike Smith's mouth were to thank Jesus for the triumph. Then they cut to an interview with the horse's owner, and he thanked god for this great victory. Are we supposed to conclude that none of the other jockeys or owners were in good standing with THE LORD, Justify won because the other horses were ridden by blasphemers and owned by apostates? That Jesus had a hundred shekels riding on Justify?
The almighty is a tremendous sports fan and has its favorites if we are to believe the athletes. Some really get carried away. I recall Bob Knepper when he was with the Giants, once explaining that if Jesus was a ballplayer, he would slide hard into second base, but would never do anything to cheat.
God doesn't do stuff, people do stuff and are entirely responsible for success or failure. Pedro Cerrano got it right when he said "Then f--k you Jobu, I do it myself."
I’m probably one of the most complete atheists you will meet. I reject all that is supernatural and therefore all religions because almost all by definition are supernatural. I don’t know if it’s weariness, old age or a combination but I just don’t get very riled up about it any more. I just kind of shake my head to myself when I hear such things like thank god they were rescued. Well, are you going to blame god for putting them in that predicament in the first place? That then of course inevitably leads to the free will assertion, supposedly exercised by beings in the physical creation of an omnipotent being....but nothing is seen as wrong with that.
Round and round it goes. The bottom line is it’s a belief and beliefs are, almost by definition, immune to rational persuasion.
“NOUN
...An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.”
You said it man. Arguing with religious folks is a merry go round.
Your comments regarding the natural and supernatural reminded me of a moment I had at my old job. The new guy was there on his first day. He is a black muslim and served in Fallujah, Iraq for the United States. He's ultra aggressive by nature and very muscular and probably not use to being challenged in any capacity often enough.
Anyway he began throwing his weight around mentally philosophizing about things with the other employees who all were well aware I am always ready to vocalize my opinion should I feel it necessary. When I chimed in and disagreed with him on a few points he went into a mode of asking me questions in quick succession almost seemingly not caring to let me finish an articulated response or just not genuinely caring what I responded with. So many religious people do this question barrage thing as if disagreeing with them must mean I have all the answers for the universe... I don't.
I played along. I find zealots entertaining sometimes and I could tell no one talks back to this guy. One of the rapid-fire questions was "Do you believe in illusions?" I of course responded YES. Next volley was (millisecond after my YES), "Do you believe in spirits?" NO, was my answer for this one, but I added there is a case for human spirit as it pertains to being a conscious and aware human being. I also added that the term spirits in the supernatural sense has no evidence and therefore my answer was NO. "Well how can you believe in illusions and not spirits?" He added a short analogy to the 2 ideas or something but cannot recall his exact wording. I responded by telling him I can have a book in my hand, a tangible piece of matter full of illusions that deceive the senses of even the keenest of humans. I cannot hold in my hand a book of spirits. He seemed mildly fascinated by that response and wanted to talk more later.
He left the office and the other guy sitting near us told the other guys I was an a-hole for "arguing with the new guy." It was in jest of course and we all got along really well, but he was just pointing out my willingness to not let anything slide, even a new guys sermon to his new co-workers.
To this day I am good friends with this man and we both left that job. He has many flaws and I do too. We still challenge each other all the time and in different ways, but I try to be a good influence on him. I don't argue with him for the sake of arguing.
So yeah natural = plethora of evidence, both anecdotal and quantifiable.
Supernatural = great for fiction in movies and the like I guess heh.
When Justify completed its Triple Crown win this year, the first words out of jockey Mike Smith's mouth were to thank Jesus for the triumph. Then they cut to an interview with the horse's owner, and he thanked god for this great victory. Are we supposed to conclude that none of the other jockeys or owners were in good standing with THE LORD, Justify won because the other horses were ridden by blasphemers and owned by apostates? That Jesus had a hundred shekels riding on Justify?
The almighty is a tremendous sports fan and has its favorites if we are to believe the athletes. Some really get carried away. I recall Bob Knepper when he was with the Giants, once explaining that if Jesus was a ballplayer, he would slide hard into second base, but would never do anything to cheat.
God doesn't do stuff, people do stuff and are entirely responsible for success or failure. Pedro Cerrano got it right when he said "Then f--k you Jobu, I do it myself."
I find it hard to believe that if there is a god that he cares about a horse race.
I'm not disgusted at all by the men who helped find and rescue this group. Nor by the many thoughts that surely helped as well.
Do you think that the same type of "thoughts" went through the minds of the 29 people who definitely died and the 29 people who (as of what I last read) were still missing from the sinking of a tourist boat off Thailand's Phuket Island a few days ago? Do you think it was agony being one of the 105 passengers on board when the tourist boat was sinking. Gee, what happened to the "many thoughts" of those passengers and later their families left to mourn? Guy upstairs ignoring them, I guess.
As btw, all the Thais involved in the rescue...they weren't praying to the christian god. Perhaps they were praying to Buddha. And there are photos of the boys in the cave meditating...not to Jesus, because 95% of Thais are Buddhist, and most of the remainder are Muslim.
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