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I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
First of all, way to lump all atheists together, OP. Second, the best fast answer is "why do you?"
Why do you respect a fictional character or characters (most cultures had multiple gods, some still do) arrived at innocently at first in human history to try to understand nature, but then quickly used as crowd control by sociopaths? Why do you believe in Santa for grown ups or "you get heaven for being a good little boy or girl"? Why do so many lack the intellectual level to see what's obvious to the brightest, that god is a human made figure invented for reasons already stated?
No one respects god, OP. They respect the "authority" of the system of belief they grow up around. It's often fear based or based on childishness. Why can't you see there is no god to respect? Respect goodness, kindness, all the things you think god represents as much as you like and as many non-believers do. But don't expect us to respect the nonsense of human made characters that simply reflect the cultures that invent them and the corrupt goals of the powers that be in those cultures.
First of all, way to lump all atheists together, OP. Second, the best fast answer is "why do you?"
Why do you respect a fictional character or characters (most cultures had multiple gods, some still do) arrived at innocently at first in human history to try to understand nature, but then quickly used as crowd control by sociopaths? Why do you believe in Santa for grown ups or "you get heaven for being a good little boy or girl"? Why do so many lack the intellectual level to see what's obvious to the brightest, that god is a human made figure invented for reasons already stated?
No one respects god, OP. They respect the "authority" of the system of belief they grow up around. It's often fear based or based on childishness. Why can't you see there is no god to respect? Respect goodness, kindness, all the things you think god represents as much as you like and as many non-believers do. But don't expect us to respect the nonsense of human made characters that simply reflect the cultures that invent them and the corrupt goals of the powers that be in those cultures.
I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
Is your actual complaint about why atheists don't respect god, or is it why atheists don't respect those who insist that there is a god and here are its rules?
If the former, then it should be obvious that the atheist is not going to have respect for an entity which the atheist regards as entirely mythological. Why don't I have more respect for Paul Bunyan or King Arthur's Merlin? That sort of thing.
If the latter, it is a matter of finding it difficult to separate the belief from the believer. I can respect your right to believe whatever you wish, but if what you elect to believe strikes me as nonsense, and the venue is appropriate, such as this public forum designed to facilitate an exchange of views on the specific subject, then I see no reason not to call nonsense.....nonsense.
Of course when you do that, the believer will naturally take it as a personal attack, but the only ways to avoid that is to either not participate at all, or constantly be pulling ones punches in the name of not hurting anyone's feelings....which pretty much defeats the purpose of exchanging views.
I can only speak for myself, but the controversies you see arising in this forum, are not controversies I am dealing with in life. I don't raise the subject of religion, if asked I am truthful in a minimalist, non provocative way. I hold no illusions that I could convert someone with dazzling rhetoric or unassailable logic, so I do not try.
That is outside this forum. Here, a venue which exists to air the real views, I have an outlet for that which I restrain otherwise. A religious visitor to this forum will be getting exposed only to the openly challenging aspects of atheist's personalities. In that this is all that this visitor knows of us, of course it seems like we are a disrespectful group. I suspect that most us us pass for perfectly normal elsewhere.
Which idea of god? It's a concept, and there are many deity concepts. What is there to "respect"? I treat them as deity concepts in ancient mythos. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, if you're speaking of First Cause concepts that fall outside that of classical and traditional theism, be it "mono," heno, poly, etc., then these are even more abstract and are idea/concept-based sans revelation of truth and folklore.
Just a note here because you are new to these parts, Kara, but Miss Hepburn does not identify as a Christian nor is she of the fundamentalist type of religion to which you seem to be referring as causing "so much suffering and obtuse thought". She is not going to try to "save" you.
While obviously an atheist can't respect something they don't believe exists in the first place, I think the second part of her question is valid, especially as regards those of us who have a sense of something beyond than the biblical/Abrahamic God.
A "sortagod", as Transponder named it. In my case, God being a concept of something that connects us but that is not actually a person, but that is sometimes personified, not so different as the sun or moon or wind is often personified.
It would actually be refreshing to have a thread about the "idea of God" that isn't derailed by Bible quoting and threats of hell and damnation, but I don't know if we could pull it off in this venue.
Anyway, back to Miss Hepburn's topic.
I have no issue with the idea of a Prime Mover/First Cause/Cosmic Consciousness/the Force, etc., or other pantheistic/pandesitic, panentheistic/panendeistic concepts. I find them quite fascinating and much of my focus in my field has centered around these concepts. I actually identify as a relative metaphysical atheist - agnostic (I waver between hard and soft) pandeist.
But people have to first have an adequate knowledge base of these concepts in order to form thoughts or positions on them, and I've run into both classical theists and nontheists that are utterly clueless about metaphysical concepts outside Abrahamic theism. They may be quick to hash out the usual tired arguments for/against El/Yahweh, Jesus and Holy Spirit (for trinitarians), but have little or nothing to say about Advaita's Brahman or Mazdaism's panentheistic conception of Ahura Mazda, two concepts that continue to fascinate me 10 years after first exploring and studying them. I wrote a thesis that touched on both, actually.
I think the issue with "atheists" and the idea of "God" is that the Abrahamic concept is most relevant to Western interests and criticism, because hyper-religious Americans aren't invoking Brahman or Ahura Mazda in their daily life and political aims. They don't pose a threat, but neither do they register as a curiosity because they just aren't fixtures in our cultural psyche. Most Western nontheists are too concerned about the threats the Abrahamic religions pose than some abstract-seemingly new age-y (but not) Eastern "higher power." My husband is a strong/explicit atheist that has studied many different religious traditions, and while he's not an agnostic pandeist, he's also fascinated by other ideas and concepts and we talk extensively about Advaita, Taoism and how the concept of the Force was influenced by a variety of Eastern philosophical concepts. He appreciates and respects these traditions.
I have no issue with the idea of a Prime Mover/First Cause/Cosmic Consciousness/the Force, etc., or other pantheistic/pandesitic, panentheistic/panendeistic concepts. I find them quite fascinating and much of my focus in my field has centered around these concepts. I actually identify as a relative metaphysical atheist - agnostic (I waver between hard and soft) pandeist.
But people have to first have an adequate knowledge base of these concepts in order to form thoughts or positions on them, and I've run into both classical theists and nontheists that are utterly clueless about metaphysical concepts outside Abrahamic theism. They may be quick to hash out the usual tired arguments for/against El/Yahweh, Jesus and Holy Spirit (for trinitarians), but have little or nothing to say about Advaita's Brahman or Mazdaism's panentheistic conception of Ahura Mazda, two concepts that continue to fascinate me 10 years after first exploring and studying them. I wrote a thesis that touched on both, actually.
I think the issue with "atheists" and the idea of "God" is that the Abrahamic concept is most relevant to Western interests and criticism, because hyper-religious Americans aren't invoking Brahman or Ahura Mazda in their daily life and political aims. They don't pose a threat, but neither do they register as a curiosity because they just aren't fixtures in our cultural psyche. Most Western nontheists are too concerned about the threats the Abrahamic religions pose than some abstract-seemingly new age-y (but not) Eastern "higher power." My husband is a strong/explicit atheist that has studied many different religious traditions, and while he's not an agnostic pandeist, he's also fascinated by other ideas and concepts and we talk extensively about Advaita, Taoism and how the concept of the Force was influenced by a variety of Eastern philosophical concepts. He appreciates and respects these traditions.
^I think you could begin a whole new, very interesting thread from which maybe the rest of us could learn a lot.
I think that would be a very interesting thread indeed, and one that i could contribute little to other than attention because i am, as you say, totally clueless about such stuff, being wholly focussed upon Personal God -claims and particularly the Abrahamic ones, as they are the only ones that are a concern for me.
I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
Simple. Religions are a belief system, as is any philosophy. How can an idea require any respect? The only thing that requires respect are human beings, be they male, female, young, old, disabled, gay or lesbian, no matter what race, human beings deserve respect.
I feel like saying, "Can't use the Bible."
Cuz, come on, it's a crazy making source of contradictions,
beyond logic.
Can you speak by not referring to the Bible?
Have at it.
Do you disrespect Santa? Are you angry at Santa for not existing? What sense would that make? It's not necessary to read from the Bible to find reasons not to believe in God. Reading the Bible helps the process of not believing in God along, however.
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