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Old 05-06-2019, 10:07 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
That is ironically a very black and white view.
But----that is what new atheism is. Very black and white!
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:09 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Just forget it. You either can't or won't answer the actual question.
I guess this was the question:

Quote:
What strategies of oldie atheists "worked"?
A strategy means there was a goal. What was the goal? Hmm. it seems they were just philosophers, nothing more. Can you define what is the goal?
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,779 posts, read 4,982,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
But----that is what new atheism is. Very black and white!
Binary usually is.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,818 posts, read 24,321,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I guess this was the question:



A strategy means there was a goal. What was the goal? Hmm. it seems they were just philosophers, nothing more. Can you define what is the goal?
You said that aspects of the old atheism worked.

I want to know what those aspects were that actually worked.

Either you just talk to talk, or you meant something.

If you can't answer your own ramblings, just say so.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:53 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You said that aspects of the old atheism worked.

I want to know what those aspects were that actually worked.

Either you just talk to talk, or you meant something.

If you can't answer your own ramblings, just say so.
Oops, it was a trick question!

I will stick with one of the greatest philosophers that ever lived:



Ayn Rand was pretty good.

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Old 05-06-2019, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,818 posts, read 24,321,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Oops, it was a trick question!

I will stick with one of the greatest philosophers that ever lived:



Ayn Rand was pretty good.
I want everybody to notice that despite repeated requests, he has refused to actually answer the question. What a waste of time.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:16 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I want everybody to notice that despite repeated requests, he has refused to actually answer the question. What a waste of time.
OK, Ayn Rand a very famous atheist came up with the concepts of individualism and to reject altruism. That in itself is a major victory for atheism.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,818 posts, read 24,321,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
OK, Ayn Rand a very famous atheist came up with the concepts of individualism and to reject altruism. That in itself is a major victory for atheism.
Sorry, it took way too many posts to get you to answer a rather simple question. After a couple of comments, I'll no longer respond to you in this part of the thread. You waste our time.

1. Ayn Rand didn't invent the concept of individualism. The concept began to be developed nearly a century before she was born.
2. The rejection of altruism is not a goal of atheism.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:51 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,916,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
OK, Ayn Rand a very famous atheist came up with the concepts of individualism and to reject altruism. That in itself is a major victory for atheism.
Ayn Rand was an extremely flawed human being. I was in college when she was preaching her screed to students. To Rand, taxation is theft, but... she had no problem accepting help from the State when she needed it. Rand taught “there is no such thing as the public interest,” that programs like Social Security and Medicare steal from “creators” and illegitimately redistribute their wealth. This was a "sublimely enticing argument for wealthy businessmen who had no interest whatever in the public interest.... Yet the taxpayers of America paid Rand's and Frank O'Connor's medical expenses."

Her philosophy not only does not prohibit helping others for purely altruistic reasons, but it does not prohibit the harming of others out of self-interest.

While she points out the flaws in Communism having grown up under the Russian Communists, she takes things to an extreme.

Her relationship with Nathaniel Branden is an example of her egotism and her selfishness.

The fact is that humans have a tendency to cooperate which according to Rand should not exist. We are far more cooperative and willing to trust than is predicted by the theory, and we retaliate vehemently when others behave selfishly. In fact, we are willing to pay a penalty for an opportunity to punish people who appear to be breaking implicit rules of fairness in economic transactions. Humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals. Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:14 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,342,394 times
Reputation: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Ayn Rand was an extremely flawed human being. I was in college when she was preaching her screed to students. To Rand, taxation is theft, but... she had no problem accepting help from the State when she needed it. Rand taught “there is no such thing as the public interest,” that programs like Social Security and Medicare steal from “creators” and illegitimately redistribute their wealth. This was a "sublimely enticing argument for wealthy businessmen who had no interest whatever in the public interest.... Yet the taxpayers of America paid Rand's and Frank O'Connor's medical expenses."

Her philosophy not only does not prohibit helping others for purely altruistic reasons, but it does not prohibit the harming of others out of self-interest.

While she points out the flaws in Communism having grown up under the Russian Communists, she takes things to an extreme.

Her relationship with Nathaniel Branden is an example of her egotism and her selfishness.

The fact is that humans have a tendency to cooperate which according to Rand should not exist. We are far more cooperative and willing to trust than is predicted by the theory, and we retaliate vehemently when others behave selfishly. In fact, we are willing to pay a penalty for an opportunity to punish people who appear to be breaking implicit rules of fairness in economic transactions. Humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals. Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.
Rand sounded extremely conservative, I give you that. However, she provided the answers to end racism.

Quote:
Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.
AR
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