Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Oh absolutely. I'm not a Christian so I don't have such requirements.
The thing is that once you strip God of omnibenevolence then God loses its power to teach and set behavioral standards. This is why omnibenevolence was embraced by religions, because of the norm-setting, didactic power of claiming God is all good.
If God is both good and evil then nothing is ungodly, and God becomes a distant observer of the universe acting through its processes rather than an active participant. At that point you begin to question the usefulness of the god idea beyond filling in gaps in the origin story.
Omnibenevolence is necessary for religion, but it also provides the Achilles heel of religion in the problem of evil. There is no resolution to this problem that preserves religion. We can only remain ignorant of it or ignore its implications to maintain religion.
The thing is that once you strip God of omnibenevolence then God loses its power to teach and set behavioral standards. This is why omnibenevolence was embraced by religions, because of the norm-setting, didactic power of claiming God is all good.
If God is both good and evil then nothing is ungodly, and God becomes a distant observer of the universe acting through its processes rather than an active participant. At that point you begin to question the usefulness of the god idea beyond filling in gaps in the origin story.
Omnibenevolence is necessary for religion, but it also provides the Achilles heel of religion in the problem of evil. There is no resolution to this problem that preserves religion. We can only remain ignorant of it or ignore its implications to maintain religion.
I get what you're saying and i'm not trying to define what god would intend to set as standards. I have no clue if god exists let alone which playbook he would be following. I'm leaning towards there is something more to all this than just natural processes over long periods. If he does exist however, what his intentions are to me are completely unknown.
This perhaps is a flaw of religions that they sort of assume that god would want our expectations of a certain set of standards to be met. In essence, we are seeing him as perhaps we would want to see him instead possibly of how he really is.
As I said, perhaps to him/her they whatever, the fact that there is kindness, goodness and love at all may be enough. It is within our power to embrace such things or not. Maybe that is simply good enough for him and the fact we choose to ignore these in favor of evil is up to us to figure out through eternity. I mean, he created a canvas that is almost 14 billion years old if he indeed did create it. I'm looking at this from the lens that god if he created the universe, didn't necessarily create it for simply 1 class G star in a pretty mundane galaxy. Point being, if god exists he didn't just do it for us on this speck.
Back to religion, i'm having a hard time reconciling the good in religious text as a whole. For many, the words inscribed are far from good at all. So which text should we use? Oh wait, god hasn't made that clear and objectively, if you follow the word of god where would that get us? Who in 2022 follows say the bible to a 't' so how relevant is the text of religious doctrine to the entire world let alone the entire universe.
So for me, when it comes to religion and specifically religious texts, they are far more likely to be inspired by men from long ago, who thought they had this all down at the time. We or many of us, for some reason continue to be beholden by these ancient texts without making a reasonable effort to question if these words were really inspired by god at all. What is their credibility. They seemed like a bunch of bitter and judgmental men than really inspired by the almighty. If someone started writing new religious doctrine in modern times, we'd consider them as having mental health issues. Even if the texts were more truly omnibenevolent. Objectively, I think we could create a modern day religious doctrine that more reflects goodness than the hand me downs of the past. I'm not dismissing all the texts as irrelevant to modern times, but many are and have simply not withstood a few thousands years of time well. I mean, if god inspired them as some would believe, he couldn't create timeless text. I mean he had already been hanging around for almost 14 billion years at a minimum even back then.
So god could be omnibenevolent and the Devil may indeed exist and many of us may be going to hell for an eternity for not embracing this. Having said that, it is also possible that what I put forth is a possibility as well. That god simply allows all these forces to interplay because this is the nature of existence whether we like it or not. This could all be simply for amusement and entertainment. Why? Because what else would god do for eternity and again, assuming there is a god or godly beings.
it does not make sense to ask that question to atheists, in the atheist section of the forum.
if you want to know how theists think, ask theists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45
This probably sounds similar to the Problem of Evil, but how do Theist folks 'reconcile' a supposedly 'caring God'... with the current universe full of cosmic violence and natural disasters, and where somewhere at this very moment, 'He' is also allowing another sun that once gave life and enabled a civilization just like ours, to instantly wipe it out in a star-gone-nova 'Extinction' event? Or as a wishy-washy 'agnostic', perhaps I'm just not seeing the 'evidence' for the ever-popular 'loving, caring' kinda God (assuming any Deities even exist)?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-14-2022 at 06:38 PM..
it does not make sense to ask that question to atheists, in the atheist section of the forum.
if you want to know how theists think, ask theists.
Well this is the atheism and agnosticism section, so I don't think it is that clear cut that everyone here doesn't believe in the possibility of a god/gods. It is ok to ask such people their opinions on it. Spirituality itself doesn't have to be a direction connection to theism either. As a matter of fact, individuals in this section may provide more of an untarnished perspective, than theists linked to religions may be confined to.
There is nothing wrong with being 'wishy washy' about this stuff. Who really knows
Actually there are 'scales of belief' among Atheist's and Agnostics.
Well this is the atheism and agnosticism section, so I don't think it is that clear cut that everyone here doesn't believe in the possibility of a god/gods. It is ok to ask such people their opinions on it. Spirituality itself doesn't have to be a direction connection to theism either. As a matter of fact, individuals in this section may provide more of an untarnished perspective, than theists linked to religions may be confined to.
There is nothing wrong with being 'wishy washy' about this stuff. It would be arrogant for anyone to state with absolution that they 'know'
Actually there are 'scales of belief' among Atheist's and Agnostics.
Besides which, atheists are allowed to have opinions about religious woo.
Revelation that our concept of ' love ' or ' caring' are finite. Which I'm fine with.
As living things are finite.
But nope, can't mesh this concept of This deity has sooo much love that it can watch millions of life forms suffer, be slaughtered. And be: 'ahh I do love and care. '.
Mind you some 35 yrs ago was last I picked up and read my notes from a philosophy course. The debate then was -
nietzsche saying God is dead. I believe that's true . We must re evaluate that concept and either keep it as a dead concept or dabble in the possibly that maybe an energy or entity is guiding. But caring and loving are by no means hitting the mark just based on the past 100 years.
Having faith in humanity is where the road meets the rubber. Not whether some greatness will intercede and balance out .
Critical thinking. Staying grounded . Helps.
Well this is the atheism and agnosticism section, so I don't think it is that clear cut that everyone here doesn't believe in the possibility of a god/gods. It is ok to ask such people their opinions on it. Spirituality itself doesn't have to be a direction connection to theism either. As a matter of fact, individuals in this section may provide more of an untarnished perspective, than theists linked to religions may be confined to. There is nothing wrong with being 'wishy washy' about this stuff. Who really knows Actually there are 'scales of belief' among Atheist's and Agnostics.
the opening specifically asks about theists.
it asks specifically "how do theists reconcile"
so yeah, the opening post is asking directly about the theism of theists.
which is not the same thing as the "opinion of atheists and agnostics"
Revelation that our concept of ' love ' or ' caring' are finite. Which I'm fine with.
As living things are finite.
But nope, can't mesh this concept of This deity has sooo much love that it can watch millions of life forms suffer, be slaughtered. And be: 'ahh I do love and care. '.
Mind you some 35 yrs ago was last I picked up and read my notes from a philosophy course. The debate then was -
nietzsche saying God is dead. I believe that's true . We must re evaluate that concept and either keep it as a dead concept or dabble in the possibly that maybe an energy or entity is guiding. But caring and loving are by no means hitting the mark just based on the past 100 years.
Having faith in humanity is where the road meets the rubber. Not whether some greatness will intercede and balance out .
Critical thinking. Staying grounded . Helps.
It would almost be a euphoric feeling of being unshackled from the notion that god must be all loving and caring. We know based on suffering, pain and so many injustices that god is not intervening, or at least not in every instance. Perhaps that place exists and we are just clearly not in it.
Our understanding is limited. Indeed, if the very concept of hell has any relevance, we must sort of be in that or closer to that than any omnipresent utopic heaven parallel existence. That hasn't been our existence from the very start of humanity, horrible things have always happened and will continue so.
Imagine if that intervention happened, clearly we would be aware of that loving guidance, always with us always preventing evil. There would be no need to have a debate if god exists, we would know.
So perhaps god is not dead, just the concept that an all loving, ever present god, that clips out all evil at all times, in all places in existence is dead. A fresh take on god and what he may really be all about, whilst may be disappointing to some with embedded beliefs that are probably untrue, could be a the start of a journey of truth for others.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
