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If atheists were treated with a reasonable degree of respect by christians, I'd be saying something different. But we're not. I'm tired of being told that unless I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, that I'm going to hell. I'm tired of the door knockers. I'm tired of the people who approach you if you are out walking or hiking. I'm tired of laws still on the books in some states that atheists cannot hold public office. I'm tired of ex-friends who say, "Well if you won't come and be born again, then we can't be friends". I could go on.
All the things you are tired of - I did not represent!
If atheists were treated with a reasonable degree of respect by christians, I'd be saying something different. But we're not. I'm tired of being told that unless I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior, that I'm going to hell. I'm tired of the door knockers. I'm tired of the people who approach you if you are out walking or hiking. I'm tired of laws still on the books in some states that atheists cannot hold public office. I'm tired of ex-friends who say, "Well if you won't come and be born again, then we can't be friends". I could go on.
Your World and experience is vert much different than mine. Both religion and atheism are seldom topics I have experienced in my 71 years of life. Experiences like yours and the comments from extremely religious folks keeps me interested in these forums as if I am in another world.
Perhaps do some theological study. No serious philosopher or theologian thinks it's unsolvable. The large majority of secular philosophers admit this and have abandoned this line of attack.
Please point out how this can be resolved instead of making vague appeals to authority.
Perhaps do some theological study. No serious philosopher or theologian thinks it's unsolvable. The large majority of secular philosophers admit this and have abandoned this line of attack.
The problem is theology is theology, and many philosophers do not bother to put the data in. So instead of just claiming victory, you need to show where the argument actually fails. Argumentum ab auctoritate alone is not a refutation.
I disagree. This isn't a binary discussion or a debate. I'm not looking at it like that. I see something that may have an alternative explanation, i'll put forward. I don't need to prove my equation true to have a thought, idea, feeling or an experience.
Except your argument is based on god being able to do everything and not being able to do everything.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
I'm feeling we are not going to have a meeting of the minds with this.
That is in order, as I said, this is just a mental exercise for me.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
I simply don't see why god couldn't be omnipotent with the existence of evil or greed or jealousy etc. I don't see the connection.
Because if a god can do anything (omnipotent), then it can create world without evil. So why would a god create evil? You can not claim some unknown reason why it must, because that would be a limit, and omnipotence can not have a limit, otherwise it would not be omnipotence.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
Well they may not be just human constructs. They could be constructs in other intelligent (assuming there are) civilizations in galaxies around the universe.
Except our morality is evolving as we learn to understand what works for benefit of everything. We redefine what is good or bad, such as treating slaves well evolving in to not having slaves. And our morality is ultimately based on why we are moral being in the first place, to survive in a group.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
The fundamental thing we are at odds with, is you think everything that exists is the result of natural processes with no divine intention. I'm not dissociating myself from natural processes or science.
We know natural forces exist, and not only do we have no evidence of an intelligence behind them, we do not need one, because logically they could simply be inherent properties of existence itself.
And intention infers a conscious intelligence, and we have no evidence of conscious intelligence without brains, so why would we presume such a thing is possible? And how would this conscious entity know things? And how would it create good and evil?
For me, arguing a god must be behind it only raises questions, and answers none.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
I'm simply stating that I am open to the fact that there could be divine intention to the universe. This has nothing to do with some theist showing me evidence, it was an intense personal experience I had that triggered this, but it is also a possibility. This is at its most basic level. This doesn't make me illogical. Perhaps an idealist but quite frankly Harry - you just don't know and neither do I.
Except you are claiming an extra, a divine intention. That you had a personal experience is evidence to you, and I can not use your experience, I can only use what I know.
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Originally Posted by fusion2
Take out the spiritual Journey for yourself and I think these are very noble. I think possibly they could have a divine inspiration but I could be wrong. So could you. We'll either find out, or we won't. That said, if you are happy and content than I am happy for you! I also appreciate your kind words!
I think you're going to just have to get over it. Maybe you'll be lucky and god will send a lightning bolt to hit me and save you any discomfort.
You are saying I should get over it, but you posted about being 'tired' of all this, that and the other so maybe you should get over that lol. I'm over it. Whether you choose to glean anything from the exchange in terms of how you speak to people is up to you. Otherwise, I wish no ill will to anyone and wish you the best. I also respect your posts and point of view, which is why I was puzzled by what you said. But i'm done with it and fresh slate here. Each day should be treated as new.
Because if a god can do anything (omnipotent), then it can create world without evil. So why would a god create evil? You can not claim some unknown reason why it must, because that would be a limit, and omnipotence can not have a limit, otherwise it would not be omnipotence.
So assuming god is omnipotent and that is just an assumption, I don't know why god would create an existence with evil. Is there a compelling case why he shouldn't? Perhaps it is necessary. Perhaps he is a larger representation of us, He has good and bad and everything in between in him. This doesn't have to detract from his power does it? I still am perplexed with the notion that he must be all loving and good to be omnipotent. They could be entirely separate matters.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Except our morality is evolving as we learn to understand what works for benefit of everything. We redefine what is good or bad, such as treating slaves well evolving in to not having slaves. And our morality is ultimately based on why we are moral being in the first place, to survive in a group.
This is a fair argument. There could also be examples of good and bad that we have not delved into yet as a species.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
We know natural forces exist, and not only do we have no evidence of an intelligence behind them, we do not need one, because logically they could simply be inherent properties of existence itself.
I think i've said as much many times over Harry. There is absolutely a possibility that there is no need for a god. That we exist simply as a result of mechanisms in the universe from its birth up until this point. I've had my own experiences however that challenge that for me. Not enough that I believe in god, just in the possibility. I don't need to provide evidence of it. That said, I'm not sure how one would definitively dismiss the possibility of a god given, not just what we don't know, but also what is possible. There are a lot of things that are possible and may be true and may exist that we are not familiar with. It's not a god of the gaps argument, it is simply an argument that on its own is possible, without our historical baggage.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
And intention infers a conscious intelligence, and we have no evidence of conscious intelligence without brains, so why would we presume such a thing is possible? And how would this conscious entity know things? And how would it create good and evil?
No there is no scientific evidence of it. Nor is there a requirement for there to be. This is highly individual and personal. Why presume it is possible for there to be god? Well why presume it is possible for there not to be a god? Why did the universe begin? Why is there something and not nothing. Wouldn't it be more logical for there to be nothing than something. What existed before the big bang? What was the state of the universe prior to and why did an inflationary event occur, giving rise to the matter and energy we know about and that which we don't know much about? What was the trigger? What were the processes behind that trigger?
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
For me, arguing a god must be behind it only raises questions, and answers none.
Read my previous questions. Science has put forth a bevy of new questions for us. It is a beautiful thing my friend - When we have more answers than questions, things will get more boring
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Except you are claiming an extra, a divine intention. That you had a personal experience is evidence to you, and I can not use your experience, I can only use what I know.
To clarify my position. I'm not there believing in god. Only that it is possible based on my experience. Based on the evidence, I have nothing and that is ok. As for you, continue on using what you know. If that changes let me know and i'll do same.
You are saying I should get over it, but you posted about being 'tired' of all this, that and the other so maybe you should get over that lol. I'm over it. Whether you choose to glean anything from the exchange in terms of how you speak to people is up to you. Otherwise, I wish no ill will to anyone and wish you the best.
[quote=fusion2;64004562]So assuming god is omnipotent and that is just an assumption, I don't know why god would create an existence with evil. Is there a compelling case why he shouldn't? Perhaps it is necessary. Perhaps he is a larger representation of us, He has good and bad and everything in between in him. This doesn't have to detract from his power does it? I still am perplexed with the notion that he must be all loving and good to be omnipotent. They could be entirely separate matters.
This is a fair argument. There could also be examples of good and bad that we have not delved into yet as a species.
I think i've said as much many times over Harry. There is absolutely a possibility that there is no need for a god. That we exist simply as a result of mechanisms in the universe from its birth up until this point. I've had my own experiences however that challenge that for me. Not enough that I believe in god, just in the possibility. I don't need to provide evidence of it. That said, I'm not sure how one would definitively dismiss the possibility of a god given, not just what we don't know, but also what is possible. There are a lot of things that are possible and may be true and may exist that we are not familiar with. It's not a god of the gaps argument, it is simply an argument that on its own is possible, without our historical baggage.
No there is no scientific evidence of it. Nor is there a requirement for there to be. This is highly individual and personal. Why presume it is possible for there to be god? Well why presume it is possible for there not to be a god? Why did the universe begin? Why is there something and not nothing. Wouldn't it be more logical for there to be nothing than something. What existed before the big bang? What was the state of the universe prior to and why did inflation occur giving rise to matter and energy. What was the trigger and what process was behind that trigger?
Read my previous questions. Science has put forth a bevy of new questions for us. It is a beautiful thing my friend - When we have more answers than questions, things will get more boring
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Except you are claiming an extra, a divine intention. That you had a personal experience is evidence to you, and I can not use your experience, I can only use what I know.
To clarify my position. I'm not there believing in god. Only that it is possible based on my experience. Based on the evidence, I have nothing and that is ok. As for you, continue on using what you know. If that changes let me know and i'll do same.
God or no god - you're simply a good guy!
No, we do not assume that god is omnipotent.
Well, if he "all powerful", then he created everything. Or was that some other god over in the next county?
You're correct. Nobody needs to provide proof of anything...unless they want the other person or people to buy into their belief. I'm going to put as much thought into 'buying' a god as I would to 'buying' a car.
In fact, a heck of a lot more.
Highly individual and personal...yes...which is exactly why proselytizing should stop. Everyone I know is very familiar of the religious opportunities around them. We have over 20 churches in my community, and most have their electronic billboards, or in one case Burma-Shave-style signs. If people are intelligent enough to think about religion, they're intelligent enough to find a place to worship.
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and thank you for being polite.
