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So in response to one of the threads about things being so quiet, I figured I'd ask what you all think of the historical Jesus. What are the common A&A thoughts on the life and death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?
First, I am a little bit skeptical as to the actual reality of whether or not Jesus existed. On the one hand, I find it hard to believe that there could be such an influential historical figure that never existed (but then I am reminded of hundreds of thousands of deities that are wrought throughout history). On the other hand, it's quite scary how many resemblances Jesus bears to Gods and prophets of the ancient lands in the vicinity of Jerusalem. I have found supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus to be rather dim. Of course, the Bible makes a lot of mention of Jesus but that makes Jesus no more real than Ebenezer Scrooge. Just because someone is mentioned in a book does not make them real.
But, for the purposes of debate, I will coerce myself into assuming that Jesus was a real man and that he was the son of God which are both quite a stretch of the imagination for me, especially the latter.
So, assuming that Jesus is real and that he was the son of God, the way I understand Jesus' purpose according to the Bible was to not only come and teach we "earthlings" about the love of God but to also die for our sins - the ultimate sacrifice as some call it. Keeping that in mind, I think there is a rather interesting aspect to how modern day Christianity views the teachings of Jesus.
On the one hand, I find that many Christians have misplaced their efforts and adopted the societal values that they were brought up on and raised with rather than what they ultimately suspect and know about the teachings of Christ. Sadly, I find the Bible to be much akin to a malfunctioning piece of audio equipment in that there seems to be a lot of static any time something is turned on. Essentially, what I tend to notice is that people are brought up with certain prejudices, likes, dislikes, etc... and they apply that to the God that they worship. This is the very reason why I am so fast to call God a brutal, homicidal, totalitarian dictator or the Big Brother in the sky or the omnipotent security camera. Because I honestly don't believe that if this fellow Jesus actually came to Earth to teach us mere mortals about the wonders of God that he was here to include everyone's divisive and obscene opinions. When I talk of the Bible sounding like a bunch of static I say that because it attempts to apply 1st century morals and ethics to a 20th and now 21st century world - and that's quite a different world.
Yet, people continue to fall back, harp, and rally that every single iota and every single bit of the Bible is infallible, the word of God, and that every answer to life's questions can and should be sought after through the Bible. But this brings up a major conundrum for me. HOW?! In the 1st century, many of the things that people call "sins" today were not even really available to people of the 1st century. A good example - What does the Bible say about me looking at internet pornography? Well... Here's where we run into a problem. People go to the "next higher assembly" and just throw out the "lusting is a sin" card as a catch all. I find that interesting because it then puts that person into the mindset and placement of the God they worship. In essence, they enable themselves to become the judge and juror - and that seems to precisely contradict the purpose that Jesus came here for.
In so much as his sacrifice goes, I tend to agree with Richard Dawkins in that it just goes to show the brutality of the Christian God that he'd have to murder another person to get his point across. And yet, his method of execution was so rather common in those days that I am not horrified or appalled at it because it was a part of the history. It wasn't like they invented the crucifix for Jesus. As Lenny Bruce once quipped "If Jesus had died twenty years ago, all the little Catholic school children would be wearing little wooden electric chairs around their necks."
So, my ultimate opinion of this Jesus character and the God he is a part of (as in the Holy Trinity version) is that there is no judgment. There is no divine and cosmic trial that you are going to go through when you die. That was all negated when Jesus died on the cross. The Christian God is not going to send you to an eviscerating, tormenting, and horrid place of fire, brimstone and agony - because that would defy the very nature and the very reason that Jesus came to Earth. I feel that anything less than that would be an abomination of the celestia and simply nothing worthy of worship.
But... That's simply if I believed in Jesus - which I don't.
It is very possible that JC was a real human being, it is possible that Mary, the mother, gave him birth, but not in any mystical way as bible said. JS could be a very influential figure of his time, but also, he could have been just a lunatic who proclaimed himself as god or a son of god, whichever fits. If you bring JC in todays world and let him state that he's son of god, where do you think he'll end up? Take a wild guess.
Regarding his birth, that is where faith comes in, and your faith is so strong, that you are willing to throw away everything you know about biology, chemisty, physics, and any logic period, your faith is based on a ancient book, myth if you will. You believe in myth, nothing more, nothing less.
Resurrection, is another one of the faith based believes.
Just because bible said JC is resurrected, how do you know he did? Was his body stolen by someone? Who witnessed resurrection? Was JC dead in the first place? No one knows, you want to believe what bible teaches you, but do you really believe, deep down in your heart, do you?
Perhaps a very long time ago there was a man (or many men) who traveled around and helped his fellow man, only to have the original story lost and great exaggerations made up over the years.
Interesting..... since I have long considered the Bible to be fiction, the old testament .... well..... I hold certain truths to be self evident, .... it was not intended to be a literal truth, it was the creation of the world told in a way that a quasi-literate nomadic tribe several thousand years ago could understand it. I doubt that any of the old testament jews knew a thing about the Galapagos Islands. Darwin was a world traveler, he saw plants and animals in a different way. He drew new lines of thought from his experiences, and, when confronted with the mutations of other known specie (the tortoise with a deeper neck notch in the shell that allowed this specific beast to feed higher up on limbs of the local plant life) I suspect it was a flash thing, suddenly he knew how the notch got there, and why it had evolved. There were other specie within that island chain, just as remarkable, only different, it is said that "he laughed, when the realization was upon him" Stephen J. Gould, one of the brighter minds of this century, a natural historian also, was an admirer of Darwin. The old testament jews could not have pieced together this theory, they simply did not have enough information, ergo, their world view was quite limited in it's scope. I suspect they did the best with what they had. Ok, that was the old testament, fast forward about 4 thousand years. The Romans were really good record keepers, a lot of what we know about the ancient world comes out of their records. I was fortunate enough to have been taught the Bible (a prerequisite for being a Philosophy Major, back in the olden days) by the Jesuits. The Jesuits may be a lot of things, but,.... they ain't bible thumpers. They know the book forwards and backwards and they make no claims as to the accuracy of the accounts therein. Somehow, Jesus is mentioned in the Roman records. They (jesuits) speculated that perhaps Jesus is a compilation of three different people. They were less concerned with the historical accuracy than they were the message it presented. "Do unto others...etc." "Turn the other cheek", a lesson in passive resistance. They had no qualms with my Atheism, they were smart, very smart and were downright fun to discuss with. They had come to several of the same conclusions that I had, they maintained their faith because they knew it was not a literal record, and, for them, their belief was a comfort. It was their purpose to keep the faith, because in their faith, the history could stay alive.
So in response to one of the threads about things being so quiet, I figured I'd ask what you all think of the historical Jesus. What are the common A&A thoughts on the life and death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?
Well, that would lead to my idea of the bible as a whole, but for the most part, I think jesus wasn't a man; I think he was perhaps a group of men with an idea or the idea itself (mind you, I think that most of the bible parts of jesus are great exaggerations). And really, there are a lot of things that jesus said that I can agree with, and I can really agree with a lot of what the bible has to say (the book of proverbs for example). there is however most of the bible that I have problems with, I'm sure we all know the killing by and in the name of god parts...
I think that much of the bible was meant to be metaphorical. For instance I think that genesis wasn't meant to be exact word for word, I think it was meant to be read from a distance to see what's between the lines - and that's that we come from earth in some way or another and we return to it. I don't think it was ever meant to literally say that we were made of mud, I think it was just to remind us that we are part of the planet.
Now the NT on the other hand, I think people took a lot more serious, but then again it's a bit different, there are things that changed from one book to the next. For example we aren't supposed to eat shell fish in the OT, but in the NT it's no problem, so someone was evidently changing the plot...
But anyhow, I think that jesus really just meant that if we are good to each other and treat other right that heaven will be what we create of humanity, and being an almost a hippie, I find that idea just wonderful. But unfortunately I think that somewhere along the way people just found that they can use the bible and the power it weilds to have their way and press this agenda or that - so it's pretty corrupt and even a lot of christians will admit that their religion and the way it has been used and abused is pretty messed up.
So in response to one of the threads about things being so quiet, I figured I'd ask what you all think of the historical Jesus. What are the common A&A thoughts on the life and death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?
I know this is purely because of my catholic upbringing but the impression I got was that Jesus wasn't a happy man. Baby Jesus being held by Mary is always smiling but adult Jesus always has such a melancholic expression on him and mid-crucifixion Jesus can't possibly be having a good time.
It also annoyed me as a kid that Jesus was surrounded by 12 people who weren't very bright and never seemed to understand his simple philosophies. I even remember having detention for an hour for calling his apostles "moronic sheep".
If Jesus existed, he was just another man, perhaps with more "influence" within the society. Someone down the line who was writing the bible, weaved him in with the marketing slant of giving him more powers. I do not believe he died for anyone's sins - crucification and other forms of extreme punishment were very common those days. His resurrection is a total marketing myth. FWIW, there are other religions that have many such inflated myths that do not add up either, unless you are willing to let "faith" guide you.
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