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I'm not understanding the point of this thread bluescityleon. You seem to ask questions who's answers you already know. If you don't know them google will help, but I'm betting that you are more interested in Ben's beliefs or lack of. He was a very interesting and diverse man.
Dang, I just looked it up, and you are absolutely correct. He was the sixth governor of Pennsylvania and the first Postmaster General of the U.S. I doesn't surprise me that he became postmaster General, he was, after all, primarily a man of letters.
What can I say........this is a Great accident....?...we are sharing Ideas? No? We are sharing what somebody put out there as fact......and we should .But can we agree there are holes in what others think and say? False Memories, False conclusions.... implanted or not, heartfelt belief or sinister plot? So is feeling a proof? Is believing proof? Is not believing a proof? ARE words on a page proof? Is the congressional record or any value?
See my post below which you didn't understand or agree with. About 80% of communication is conveyed thru non-verbal means - facial and body expression, inflection, tone, etc. Did he say those words with a sneering or sarcastic voice or sincerely? We cannot know more than 200 years later without someone having written more about it.
I, for instance, like to quip things like "that's why god made annual leave." Am I lying since I don't believe in god? It is called a joke and I am being sarcastic. Anyone who hears me knows this because of all the non-verbal cues (+ the absurdity of the statement).
Many other things Franklin wrote indicate he had deist or maybe even atheist leanings. Taking one statement out of context does not reveal a person's true beliefs.
Point accepted ,,,but not proof....Who was Franklin talking to .....now you imply that all of the first congress were like Franklin........maybe I agree, but who was Ben Franklin when he spoke to the 1st congress..............we can agree his earlier years he may have been some of what you imply.......but his statement." the longer I live the more I see God intervening in the lives of men" You are not understanding or acknowledging or best evidence.........If you will not consider the context and the written word and the TRADITIONAL sourses of evidence.....and the accomplishment of Ben Franklin......and the others assembled there..... You are saying he was being satirical ? And From this great statement of satire came a great country? I am agnostic as to your power to reason?
Franklin lived in a world of politics, and than as now, politicians said what they thought the public wanted to hear. He knew as do all political leaders it is easier to govern a population through religious values than a population of free thinkers. This was why Constantine oversaw the formation of the Christian faith. And why many atheists see Christianity and the Catholic Church as a political organization, it is why Napoleon made statements on religion helping him rule his empire, and why Bush went after the religious right. Religion stops people from thinking beyond their little book. It excuses the atrocities and thus enslaves their minds.
Great observation ,I do not fear or support any Church........but the actions of the Church are political and the people who attend the Church are voters.......so the church is a target for any one who wants to sway public opinion
I'm not understanding the point of this thread bluescityleon. You seem to ask questions who's answers you already know. If you don't know them google will help, but I'm betting that you are more interested in Ben's beliefs or lack of. He was a very interesting and diverse man.
you think that I ask questions I already have answers for ..........maybe true and maybe not .............but even the answers I have do not stand as to what I know........for In the final analysis what we know to be true may change, is water steam.?
Considering what religion was like during Franklin's time, coupled with my opinion that he was a Deist, I really can't guess what kind of god he worshiped. He may have worshiped nature itself. Deists form their beliefs in morality and reject the Christian concept of Jesus Christ.
Since Franklin was a figure in the Age of Enlightenment, I would tend to believe that his religious beliefs were influenced by his self-awareness of reasoning and morality, rather than what was dictated by the Church.
You have to keep in mind that, during the formative years of the United States government (not including what happened centuries before), religion was not as it is today. It was not freely discussed, and Christian theories were widely rejected.
I don't know what book you are reading on Franklin, but one of the best I've read is Benjamin Franklin: An American Life, by Walter Isaacson.
the thinkers of the age of enlightenment were putting forth the question..........what can we say is true and provable out side any belief system.........just the facts and nothing but the facts...Is This a Fair statement?
A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain is a philosophical pamphlet by Benjamin Franklin, published in London in 1725.
It argues that an omnipotent, benevolent God is incompatible with notions of human free will and morality
No wonder there is confusion, if this is true then the Life and Beliefs of Franklin evolved ....may be he was senile when he told the 1st congress to pray...and that God intervenes.in the affairs of men, and it would require the blessings of such a God to establish a New Republic that had a chance to survive.........He was Just Acting.........IF THAT IS THE CASE WE ALL ARE.
Considering what religion was like during Franklin's time, coupled with my opinion that he was a Deist, I really can't guess what kind of god he worshiped. He may have worshiped nature itself. Deists form their beliefs in morality and reject the Christian concept of Jesus Christ.
Since Franklin was a figure in the Age of Enlightenment, I would tend to believe that his religious beliefs were influenced by his self-awareness of reasoning and morality, rather than what was dictated by the Church.
You have to keep in mind that, during the formative years of the United States government (not including what happened centuries before), religion was not as it is today. It was not freely discussed, and Christian theories were widely rejected.
I don't know what book you are reading on Franklin, but one of the best I've read is Benjamin Franklin: An American Life, by Walter Isaacson.
I am not reading an opinion of Franklin and what he said.......or is reported to have said. I think I see a common thread in history,Bible,Science ( age of reason)....The mind of the individual falls under the influence of Something...........and begins to stop its independent function. and the individual thinks they have found something new.
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