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"what he said" is meaningless. Don’t mind him, it’s just his atoms bouncing around. If they bounce higher than yours, I guess we can say he was right.
Did I miss your appointment to be the sole arbitrator of what everything means? Just because you state something is this or that does not make it a fact. Your opinon of what atheism is should be stated as such if you wish to not be considered just anothe christian trolling the forums.
BTW, "what he said" is only meaningless to you. It is an agreement with a statement which you dispute. Narrow minded to not even admit that to yourself.
I am not sure if you are unable or unwilling to discuss the philosophical aspects of the atheistic worldview (paradigm), but it’s not my job to play Dr. Phil and find out.
The title of this thread is “Christians don't like hearing logic do they?”Wrongfully so,I assumed someone here was having a hard time finding a ‘logical’ Christian who wanted to discuss the “pros” and “cons” of Atheism or Theism on a philosophical level. My bad.
Go back to Roxolan’s response and review our conversation. Notice that Roxolan understood what was being said and replied accordingly, rather than becoming indignant or wrongly taking offense to what was being said, as you and db09 have.
Unfortunately, you suffer the same fate as db09 in the sense that you are a person who labels themselves as an atheist, yet has not taken the time to actually study the philosophy wrapped around the atheistic worldview. In turn, this causes confusion when someone makes a general statement about “atheism”. In fact, most of what I am saying isn’t my ‘opinion’, but are typical statements and concepts which are regularly discussed in various philosophy forums associated with “Atheism vs. Theism” venues.
As an example, when I was challenging the notion that the atheistic worldview comes with certain unjustifiedpresuppositions, such as morality, db09 and a few others lost their minds and started waving the unfair flag. As a result, my philosophical challenge went unattended, a nice spin was attached to it, and was regurgitated back that I somehow was saying Atheists weren’t moral or that they don’t know what morality is. Good grief. Are you kidding me?
It’s a great debate to really understand what it is I am trying to say here, or what Roxolan and I were discussing.
The irony is that the title of this forum is misleading, at best. I’ve got the sense from you, and db09, that you aren’t here to discuss the nuances of your worldview, at least on a philosophical level. So be it. Just don’t look and it won’t hurt as bad.
However, “atheism” is a philosophical system, complete with its own set of concepts, ideologies, boundaries, and epistemological ramifications. As a “formal” philosophical system, it is subject to criticism just like any other philosophical system. The irony is that most atheists are so use to bashing the Christian worldview that they have neglected to understand their own.
Some on this thread would do well to familiarize their self with the nuances of the same worldview they purport to adhere to. Punting to “It’s simply non-belief in deities” is a cop out, and is no different than a Christian who says “Christianity is belief in God”.
First off, it's kb09, don't want ya to get my name all mixed up now.
Hey, my pseudo is Roxolan and I don't complain. Mistakes do happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint.Andrew
Roxolon,
Thank you for being consistent. You have beautifully demonstrated my point for me. My point was merely to expose the nihilism that quietly lurks behind the scenes of Atheism (more to the point, naturalism).
Nihilism?
First, let me remind you that you only heard my opinion. I do not consider myself the voice of all atheists. The only thing that all atheists share is their disbelief in gods.
Secondly, from dictionary.com:
Quote:
Nihilism:
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, esp. toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.
4. Philosophy.
a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth.
b. nothingness or nonexistence.
5. (sometimes initial capital letter) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
6. annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, esp. as an aspect of mystical experience.
I just don't see in what way is my worldview is nihilistic. It doesn't fit any of these definitions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint.Andrew
While some Atheists believe in silly notions, such as ghosts, I hope that you would agree that they violate the very axiom their worldview is predicated upon.
I certainly wouldn't, as I tried to explain to you before. If the existence of ghosts implied the existence of a god, then you would have a point. But they don't, so atheists are free to believe in ghosts without self-contradiction (though I would disagree with them for other reasons).
What I think you haven’t caught on to is that you have undermined your ability to disagree at all. If ‘logic’ is mere convention, a byproduct of your brain gas, then you are left without a basis for true/real knowledge. Your atoms are merely reacting to other atoms. True, as you say, is confined to bouncing around that occurs between the gray matter. By atom bounced higher, so I guess that means I won the debate.
You stated that “logic is a convention, not a transcendental law. We choose to use it because it makes communication possible”, but this seems to me to miss the point. My simply labeling logic as a convention doesn’t address the problem of “truth”. So we communicate? Again, debate is meaningless, just as communication, if we are “destined” by our predetermined reaction to other atoms. The view is essentially fatalistic. You are not debating, you are not using logic, and you are fizzing. Irrational or contradictory statements do not exist. Determinism is fatalistic as far as I can tell.
It is. However, from our perspective, it certainly doesn't feel so.
Picture two computers playing chess. They use different programs, but their hardware is basically the same. They share a language, a "logic", even though it is only a convention and not a transcendent law. Because they are programmed, each of their moves is entirely determined - and, by extension, the victory (decided by the rules of the game, another shared convention) is also. For each move, their program will consider most or all options, test different scenarios, assign a value to each option, and then pick the "best" one as far as it can tell. Nevertheless, one will win and the other will lose.
Possibly, if computers were given the ability to think about their own conscience, like we can, they'd think they had free will. After all, they have a multitude of options, and use various criterions to select one - but they could pick another option if they had any reason to do so.
Now tell me, in what way do humans play chess differently? Or debate, for that matter? Sure, humans could decide to deliberately make the "wrong" choice. But that's only because our "chess algorithm" is more complicated and has other goals than just winning the game. We've got an "ego" variable, a "pity" routine, an annoying "outside distractions" virus... Much more complex than your standard computer program, but the same basic process nonetheless.
Quote:
Just as you admit that “morality” is mere ‘instinct’, it doesn’t explain why it is that you place value in some ‘instincts’ over others and renders morality meaningless, thus relativistic by design. Nothing is ever “good” or “bad”.
I place value in that morality because I physically can't ignore it. It hurts to do something I've been taught is wrong (or that goes against my evolution-grown instincts).
Quote:
Atoms and reactions don’t experience and “know”, but you do. If chemical reactions can't experience, and you have experiences, then you aren't just a material construct.
I'm not an atom, but an extremely complex assemblage of atoms. They have emergent behaviors that do not exist on the atomic level.
A single molecule of air cannot carry sound. Does that mean that sound does not exist, or that it is metaphysical in nature?
Quote:
Naturalism cannot begin by assuming, by faith, that there is a possibility of true knowledge even though naturalism denies any possible preconditions for such knowledge (i.e. things are objectively true).
I don't remember denying the existence of objective truth.
Some on this thread would do well to familiarize their self with the nuances of the same worldview they purport to adhere to. Punting to “It’s simply non-belief in deities” is a cop out, and is no different than a Christian who says “Christianity is belief in God”.
Sorry, this is the definition of atheism. It can also be used in a positive sense, to mean "the belief that there is no god", though I don't think there is any such "positive atheist" on this forum. Check the definition of atheism on Dictionary.com if you don't believe me.
Christians don't like hearing something that makes sense do they? Regardless of how much sense your making.
They just clam up and act like they didn't hear it.
Is that just being stubborn? Brainwashed?
I mean for me, if something is pointed out without a doubt, I tend to pay attention. I mean if your wrong or it doesn't make sense, then it just doesn't.
How do these people think that makes them so inflexible?
Nobody likes to hear something that makes sense and people have this belief that christians are the perfect people on this earth. Look at the economic situation we were being told that we couldn't sustain this economic boom but we were told it wouldn't burst. We were told that if we elect a black president racism would end. We were told if we give equal pay to woman gender discrimination would end. We are told that we are a caring society that will help everyone yet in the Congo there are more than 5 million people who have been killed since 1998 over 500,000 women raped yet we act like nothing is wrong.
A true christian believes in his GOD and doesn't go around bragging and thumping his chest about it. A true christian doesn't judge anyone because at the end of the day he's a flawed man or woman. Christianity isn't the threat to man in this world but man himself. We don't like being told what we can or can't do thereof lies the problem. I choose to follow the ten commandement as best as i can and if you choose not to that's your choice. One of us will be right at the last day of this planet whether there is a heaven or not i believe it's exist you may not but that's your choice. A smoker makes a decision that will destroy his life later and when he starts complaining that his health coverage isn't covering all his medical expenses or he wants to sue the tobacco company for his health failure whose really at fault here. That's how i look at how GOD works because he gives man "free will" to do what he chooses and he doesn't judge you for it. We have choices and have to live with it. People claim to be someone who they're not all the time. Once thing you can't argue is that christianity and the word GOD has been around since the creation of this planet and no matter what it will continue to live after we die. The bible continue to be the most sold book by far every year since books were created not a lie but a fact. Go outside this country once in a while and go in a poor country to see how these people live and make it everyday: their FAITH. It's easy to knock GOD when you live in a society that so called has it all.
I am not sure if you are unable or unwilling to discuss the philosophical aspects of the atheistic worldview (paradigm), but it’s not my job to play Dr. Phil and find out.
The title of this thread is “Christians don't like hearing logic do they?”Wrongfully so,I assumed someone here was having a hard time finding a ‘logical’ Christian who wanted to discuss the “pros” and “cons” of Atheism or Theism on a philosophical level. My bad.
Go back to Roxolan’s response and review our conversation. Notice that Roxolan understood what was being said and replied accordingly, rather than becoming indignant or wrongly taking offense to what was being said, as you and db09 have.
Unfortunately, you suffer the same fate as db09 in the sense that you are a person who labels themselves as an atheist, yet has not taken the time to actually study the philosophy wrapped around the atheistic worldview. In turn, this causes confusion when someone makes a general statement about “atheism”. In fact, most of what I am saying isn’t my ‘opinion’, but are typical statements and concepts which are regularly discussed in various philosophy forums associated with “Atheism vs. Theism” venues.
As an example, when I was challenging the notion that the atheistic worldview comes with certain unjustifiedpresuppositions, such as morality, db09 and a few others lost their minds and started waving the unfair flag. As a result, my philosophical challenge went unattended, a nice spin was attached to it, and was regurgitated back that I somehow was saying Atheists weren’t moral or that they don’t know what morality is. Good grief. Are you kidding me?
It’s a great debate to really understand what it is I am trying to say here, or what Roxolan and I were discussing.
The irony is that the title of this forum is misleading, at best. I’ve got the sense from you, and db09, that you aren’t here to discuss the nuances of your worldview, at least on a philosophical level. So be it. Just don’t look and it won’t hurt as bad.
However, “atheism” is a philosophical system, complete with its own set of concepts, ideologies, boundaries, and epistemological ramifications. As a “formal” philosophical system, it is subject to criticism just like any other philosophical system. The irony is that most atheists are so use to bashing the Christian worldview that they have neglected to understand their own.
Some on this thread would do well to familiarize their self with the nuances of the same worldview they purport to adhere to. Punting to “It’s simply non-belief in deities” is a cop out, and is no different than a Christian who says “Christianity is belief in God”.
You know, you act as if philosophy were an exact and set science, with only your definition being valid. No matter what anyone says to you, if it doesn't fit with your preconceived ideas, it must be wrong or misrepresenting the facts. Your don't ask questions, you make all encompassing declarations and expect to go unchallenged. You conceive of definitions that satisfy yourself and expect them to be accepted by all. You call basic statements cop out because you dispute their veracity. I figured you out...doubting your own beliefs you are trying to discredit all others.
This is the asexual development of a female ovum into an individual, without the aid of a male agent. It is observed among many lower forms of life such as aphids and also fish. There is also evidence that parthenogenesis can be a successful strategy among lizards living under low and unpredictable rainfall conditions. In laboratory conditions, mice and rabbit embryos have been developed parthenogenetically to a stage equivalent to halfway through pregnancy, but have then been aborted. In recent study, human embryos could be activated occasionally by parthenogenesis using calcium ionophore as a catalyst. Such research raises the prospect that some early human pregnancy losses may have involved the parthenogenetic activation of the embryo.
Hermaphroditism
This term applies when organs of both sexes are present within a single female and the chromosomes show both male and female characters aligned side by side. Laboratory tests have revealed cases such as that of a hermaphrodite rabbit which, at one stage, served several females and sired more than 250 young of both sexes, while at another stage, became pregnant in isolation and gave birth to seven healthy young of both sexes. When autopsied, it showed two functional ovaries and two infertile testes while in a pregnant condition. Recent studies suggest that such a phenomenon is possible, rarely, among humans also.
Saint.Andrew, I don't understand how you can proport a generalized 'atheist' worldview given the striking differences between, say, a non-spiritual American Atheist and the community of Jains. Perhaps you have addressed eastern and western atheism in your attempts to stereotype but I think you should narrow your language a bit.
Jesus is our Master, and our example. When the devil threw out his deceit, Jesus gave him the Word of God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)
Since I have the truth, I turn a deaf ear to deceit. Eve fell for that big lie in the Garden:
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die [a big lie]:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The devil is still fooling the multitudes today with his deceit to drag them to hell.
Jesus also made reference to Solomon performing exorcisms. Yet the book that describes Solomon exorcising demons didn't make the cut.
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