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I was not suggesting that those transit systems had sections of track where HRT trains share tracks with regional commuter trains.
I was giving examples of large major metro regions where more than one major high-capacity transit agency operates.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Yeup, I understood that. I was trying to say that modes of fixed guideway transit don't typically mix, and the GRTA/MARTA HRT that you were talking about would be the only such thing in the country. The commuter rail part was put in as an exemption to the rule, but only when higher entities own the tracks (Amtrak, UP, CSX, DOT, etc.)
You are correct that the plan to have 2 (or more) different transit agencies operating HRT trains on the same tracks would be the first of its kind in the U.S.
But the plan to have HRT trains provide regional commuter rail-type service on regional HRT tracks would not necessarily be the first of its kind in the U.S.
That's because Northern California's BART basically is intended to function as a regional commuter rail agency on regional HRT tracks.
The DC Metro is also in the process of extending HRT service (via the new DC Metro Silver HRT Line) 33 miles to the west of Downtown Washington DC along the VA 267 Dulles Toll Road/Dulles Greenway corridor to the Northern Virginia suburb of Ryan, Virginia in traditionally transit-averse Loudoun County, VA.
The DC Metro is extending HRT service to Loudoun County, VA because Dulles International Airport is located in Loudoun County and because there is no existing freight rail right-of-way on which to implement and operate commuter rail service.
The lack of an existing freight rail ROW on which to operate regional commuter trains and the presence of a major international airport at Dulles means that DC Metro HRT service will have to function in place of traditional regional commuter rail service along the VA 267 corridor....Almost like in the Atlanta region where HRT service has to be extended up the GA 400 ROW in most places north of the North Springs MARTA Station because of the lack of a radial freight rail ROW north of the city along the GA 400 North corridor.
Regional commuter rail service along an existing freight rail ROW is just simply not an option along the GA 400 North corridor in North Fulton (and beyond) because there is no existing freight rail ROW along the GA 400 North corridor.
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Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
Under a future regional transit scheme where a future GRTA regional HRT system and the current MARTA HRT system had to share HRT tracks along selected stretches, some stretches of existing HRT track might have to be expanded to accommodate the additional HRT train movements.
Though, many sections of existing HRT track likely would not have to be expanded as the existing MARTA HRT system is reported to be capable of operating with headways as low as 2 minutes between trains.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
That's IF nothing goes wrong. At that kind of frequency, one thing and the whole schedule goes to crud. Besides, the 2min frequency is a theoretical maximum, like red-lining an engine, and isn't meant to be held for prolonged periods of time.
The 2-minute frequency is not really a theoretical maximum.
There are other large major urban transit agencies (including BART, CTA, DC Metro, NYC Subway, etc) where HRT trains operate with headways as small as only 1 minute between trains during peak periods along core stretches of their HRT systems where multiple train lines operate along the same tracks.
HRT service in the Atlanta region should be more than capable of operating with 1-2 minute headways through the parts of the system where multiple HRT lines would operate along the same tracks during peak periods.
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Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
If GRTA regional HRT trains were to be added to existing MARTA HRT tracks, the system could be upgraded and modified so that there could be headways as little as a minute or so between HRT trains along the sections where GRTA and MARTA would have to share HRT tracks.
The operations of the different transit systems multi-tiered regional HRT network would be coordinated by one entity (preferably a state-funded regional oversight entity) so that the train operations of the different agencies would be in sync.
Like I mentioned before, I don't have any objections to regional commuter train service being implemented.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
And how much would it cost to retunnel, add track, completely rework stations for more than two tracks, etc. ?
Because the existing MARTA HRT stations seem to be very well-spaced along existing HRT tracks (with HRT stations not being spaced too close together throughout the existing MARTA HRT system) and with the existing MARTA HRT reportedly being capable of operating with headways as low as 2 minutes between trains, most existing MARTA HRT stations likely would not need to be reworked to handle additional trains if all passenger trains passing through those stations utilized the same operational technology (upgraded HRT technology).
Though, in many spots and around many new HRT stations, particularly around new HRT stations along existing MARTA HRT lines, passing sidings would potentially need to be added to accommodate skip-stop and express service through lower-capacity future HRT stations and future HRT stations interdependent upon a very-closely located existing HRT stations (...interdependency meaning 2 very-closely located HRT stations where each station only receives service from every other HRT train that passes through the station).
Though, we should be reminded that most large-scale high-capacity transit expansion of any kind likely will not be cheap.
It just simply is going to require lots of money (think tens-of-billions of dollars) to upgrade transit service to the level that it is so desperately needed in the Atlanta metro region.
At least we know that we are more than capable of generating the money that will be needed to properly improve, upgrade and expand our regional high-capacity from robust multiple sources like very large-scale P3's (Public-Private Partnerships), distance-based fares and large-scale transit-oriented real estate development at transit stations and along transit lines.
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Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
But with many stretches of existing freight rail tracks throughout the Atlanta metro region being completely gridlocked and experiencing sharp increases in freight rail traffic volume, regional commuter trains would most likely need their own tracks so that they could operate much more effectively than they would on tracks shared with freight trains in a region with severely-heavy freight rail volumes and a severely-constrained network of freight rail tracks.
The extremely limited capacity of the Atlanta region's existing freight rail network is one of the major reasons why the MARTA HRT system was established....Because unusually forward-looking past transportation planners in the Atlanta region saw that freight rail traffic volumes would spike through the roof by now....Though current freight rail volumes seem to have completely shattered the expectations of those forward-looking transportation planners of the 1950's and '60's.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
And yet it's more viable to tunnel and layer multiple agencies on top of equally near capacity tracks. I would imagine money would go a good bit further if it were spent above ground on the massive overhaul projects. Yes the freight railroads are clogged, it's a damned good motivator for wanting the state to help fund the upgrades, even if commuter trains are added in!
Because of the extremely-stark and often irreconcilable political differences between the Democrat-dominated areas in the core and on the south side of the Atlanta metro region and the Republican-dominated areas outside and on the north side of the Atlanta metro region, letting Republican-dominated areas operate their own regional and sub-regional transit agencies while Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton (and possibly even South Cobb, Douglas, South Gwinnett, Rockdale and Covington in the future) continue to operate MARTA would likely be the best way to foster and facilitate further high-capacity transit expansion throughout the transit-starved Atlanta region and North Georgia.
While MARTA remains a much-derided transit name and agency throughout much of OTP Metro Atlanta, MARTA is a name and agency that inspires much pride inside the I-285 Perimeter and throughout most of Fulton and DeKalb (and now Clayton) counties.
Most Republican suburbanites dislike the MARTA name, brand, image and agency while many Democratic urbanites love and adore the MARTA name.
Because spreading the MARTA name to Republican-dominated OTP suburbs/exurbs and imposing the GRTA name on ITP urban neighborhoods just does not seem to be much of a conversation starter when it comes to transit expansion in the politically-polarized Atlanta region, it would most likely be best if GOP-dominated areas and Democrat-dominated areas operated and governed their own regional and sub-regional transit schemes under the loose (but very competent and very engaged) oversight of a state transit oversight and coordination agency.
A new acronym is NOT what we need. MARTA, GRTA, just call it the New Atlanta Rail and Bus (NARB); I do not think the name is the principle issue here, LOL!
While MARTA remains a much-derided transit name and agency throughout much of OTP Metro Atlanta, MARTA is a name and agency that inspires much pride inside the I-285 Perimeter and throughout most of Fulton and DeKalb (and now Clayton) counties.
Most Republican suburbanites dislike the MARTA name, brand, image and agency while many Democratic urbanites love and adore the MARTA name.
Most people honestly don't really care that much either way.
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Because spreading the MARTA name to Republican-dominated OTP suburbs/exurbs and imposing the GRTA name on ITP urban neighborhoods just does not seem to be much of a conversation starter when it comes to transit expansion in the politically-polarized Atlanta region, it would most likely be best if GOP-dominated areas and Democrat-dominated areas operated and governed their own regional and sub-regional transit schemes under the loose (but very competent and very engaged) oversight of a state transit oversight and coordination agency.
So a Confederacy of Dunces that would fail miserably. Got it.
A new acronym is NOT what we need. MARTA, GRTA, just call it the New Atlanta Rail and Bus (NARB); I do not think the name is the principle issue here, LOL!
That is a good point that the name alone is not the principle issue.
The issues with what an expanded regional transit system or network would be named are indicative of other larger issues....Issues like the deep political, cultural and social divisions between urban ITP and Southside metro Atlanta and suburban/exurban OTP Northside metro Atlanta.
It has been a common understanding in and around both regional and state political circles that OTP suburbanites and exurbanites might be much more open to the possibility to high-capacity transit expansion into their outlying areas if such transit service was to be controlled and operated by suburban and exurban interests at the state level.
One of the major reasons that GRTA was started under former governor Roy Barnes was so that the agency would eventually supplant MARTA as the Atlanta region's dominant high-capacity transit provider....The thinking being that conservative white suburbanites and exurbanites would most likely be much more accepting of a regional transit agency that was controlled by conservative white suburbanites and exurbanites than they would be of a regional transit agency that was controlled liberal black (and white) urbanites like MARTA is and has been traditionally.
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Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
While MARTA remains a much-derided transit name and agency throughout much of OTP Metro Atlanta, MARTA is a name and agency that inspires much pride inside the I-285 Perimeter and throughout most of Fulton and DeKalb (and now Clayton) counties.
Most Republican suburbanites dislike the MARTA name, brand, image and agency while many Democratic urbanites love and adore the MARTA name.
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Originally Posted by Gulch
Most people honestly don't really care that much either way.
As evidenced by the recent acceptance of MARTA transit service into Clayton County, the long-held objections to and opposition against MARTA expansion outside of Fulton and DeKalb counties are obviously increasingly receding as the Atlanta region's demographics continue to shift in outlying suburban areas and as the Atlanta region's mobility challenges continue to mount.
But there are still some very-powerful constituencies that continue to oppose MARTA expansion into their outlying areas despite the pressing need for high-capacity transit service in their areas.
(...See the shrinking but still very powerful anti-transit contingents in heavily-populated and developed Cobb and Gwinnett counties that continue to oppose MARTA high-capacity transit expansion into their areas despite their respective counties having populations that are higher than many major American cities.)
One of the major reasons why those anti-transit interests opposition to MARTA expansion into outlying suburban counties like Cobb and Gwinnett continues to carry so much weight in those counties despite those counties' increasingly diverse populations is the widely-held dislike amongst those counties current electorates (which are often much older and anti-transit than those counties populations at-large) for the MARTA name and everything that they think it stands for.
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Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll
Because spreading the MARTA name to Republican-dominated OTP suburbs/exurbs and imposing the GRTA name on ITP urban neighborhoods just does not seem to be much of a conversation starter when it comes to transit expansion in the politically-polarized Atlanta region, it would most likely be best if GOP-dominated areas and Democrat-dominated areas operated and governed their own regional and sub-regional transit schemes under the loose (but very competent and very engaged) oversight of a state transit oversight and coordination agency.
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Originally Posted by Gulch
So a Confederacy of Dunces that would fail miserably. Got it.
Hey, MARTA appears to be on the right path to upgrading and expanding high-capacity transit service in the areas that it currently serves and the areas that it want its service in the future.
Expanding transit service to heavily-populated and heavily-developed outlying areas that don't have high-capacity transit service and where the political/social/cultural powers-that-be don't want MARTA is not MARTA's responsibility and should not really be MARTA's concern.
If outlying areas like Cobb and Gwinnett want high-capacity transit service but do not want MARTA to operate that transit service then those outlying areas should fund and operate their own high-capacity transit service.
When OTP areas get desperate enough for high-capacity transit service they will find a way to implement it in their areas, whether it be joining MARTA, operating their own service or having the state government that they dominate fund and operate it.
I think you overstate the political differences. North Fulton is probably more different from South Fulton than Cobb or Gwinnett is.
There are just a lot of parochial politicians (I'm including city of Atlanta, not just Cobb).
I think a number of things Atlanta is doing or planning will strangle DeKalb County, which already has serious transportation issues. One small example: On the same weekend they closed BOTH Ponce Deleon and Ralph McGill for Beltline bridges. Those are the two roads we use almost all the time to get to and from downtown. They could have closed them on different weekends, but closing both didn't really impact Fulton County.
Excellent concepts and comments by toll_booth in the post at 6:58 pm...
Thanks!
My Purple Line alternative up I-75 was given far better feedback than the one up the northwest CSX route. So let's go with that one instead. Here's what my system map would look like with that in place:
This would make commuting from Smyrna and Cumberland quite a bit more convenient, but I'm still leery about NIMBY issues on the NW 75 corridor.
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That is an excellent point that Heavy Rail Transit lines are expensive to construct.
But keep in mind that the commercial (and industrial) property that is along and near high-capacity passenger rail transit lines can be used to fund the construction, operations and maintenance of those high-capacity passenger rail transit lines.
Those commercial and industrial properties can fund high-capacity passenger rail transit service with:
> Value Capture taxing (...additional revenues collected from taxes generated by the increased value of commercial and industrial properties along and near high-capacity transit lines)...
> Tax Increment Financing (...additional revenues collected from taxes on new TOD (transit-oriented real estate development) along high-capacity transit lines)...and...
> New high-density mixed-use TOD (or transit-oriented real estate development) constructed on new and existing privately-owned and transit authority-owned commercial properties along high-capacity transit lines.
That means that all of the commercial and industrial areas shown in pink on your map are potential revenue generators for both future and current high-capacity passenger rail transit lines.
Do not hesitate to utilize the immense revenue-generating potential of these commercial and industrial areas when considering where to place future high-capacity passenger rail transit lines.
Also don't skimp on the amount of transit stations that you propose along high-capacity transit lines.
Using the transit-oriented real estate development method of funding, more stations means more revenue generated from high-density mixed-use transit-oriented real estate development at and around stations.
(...Very substantial amounts of operating revenue can be generated from out-leases of transit authority-owned properties for high-density mixed-use transit-oriented real estate development at and around stations...)
(...The high-density mixed-use transit-oriented real estate development at and around transit stations and along transit lines can also generate increased operating revenues from the high-level of transit ridership that the transit-oriented developments generate for a transit system.)
Increasing the amount of stations along high-capacity transit lines will not slowdown high-capacity transit service because skip-stop, express and zone service can be (and will be) utilized along many stretches of high-capacity transit lines.
Hmm. I do know that already, development speculation has begun on the N400 corridor. How much of that is induced by potential future transit, I can't say, but it is worth noting.
Also keep in mind what I've proposed, even under fantastically optimistic conditions (minimal NIMBY issues, a Congress that gets its **** together and actually is willing to fund projects such as these, etc.), all of these HRT expansions alone would probably take over a decade to go from planning-to-operating. This is why I thought it was so important to consider not just what lines to build but in what order to build them.
Regarding TOD centers, well, perhaps, but I'd like to get firm commitments from developers before adding stations for the primary purpose of additional development, especially since plenty of existing stations could take that on before any future stations you could. I'm not a big fan of applying "if you build it, [the development] will come" to HRT.
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That is an excellent point that an HRT line along the CSX/Georgia Railroad right-of-way through the Stone Mountain Village and Redan areas would fail to serve the I-20 East corridor through South DeKalb.
But a possible high-capacity passenger rail transit line along the CSX/Georgia RR ROW through the Stone Mountain Village area should not be overlooked because of the overwhelming popularity of Stone Mountain Park as a tourism attraction and visitors magnet.
Stone Mountain Park would be a massive ridership generator for any high-capacity passenger rail transit line that passed through Stone Mountain Village along the CSX/Georgia RR ROW.
Early on, I toyed with the idea of running a line out to Stone Mountain. It is not a bad idea, and it certainly could be added to the system I've got here.
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One idea that has been bandied about in the past is to implement an east-west regional high-capacity passenger rail transit line (preferably a regional HRT line with commuter rail service in the form of express HRT trains) between Cobb and Gwinnett counties by extending the east and west ends of the high-capacity transit line that has been proposed by the state to operate along the I-285 Top End Perimeter between Doraville and Cumberland.
Under this east-west cross-regional concept, the east end of the Top End I-285 Perimeter high-capacity transit line would be extended northeast into and through Gwinnett County along the I-85 Northeast corridor at least as far as Buford and likely even as far as Gainesville.
While the west end of the I-285 Top End Perimeter high-capacity rail transit line would be extended northwest along the I-75/US 41/CSX-W&A RR Northwest Corridor to at least as far as Acworth and maybe even as far as Cartersville.
If a distance-based fare structure is adopted, as is expected, transfers between transit lines will not be a problem because there will be no additional cost for transfers....Transit users will just pay for each mile they ride no matter how many different transit lines they might use (...transfers will basically be free with the utilization of a distance-based fare structure).
Hmm. My Top-End line could be a starting point for that. I think such a thing would have to be planned further down the road, however. Plus I think it makes more sense to run such lines into downtown instead of Perimeter for a number of reasons. But who knows, the numbers just might justify a Cartersville-Perimeter Center-Gainesville line.
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I really like the idea of serving the Cumberland area with at least 2 rail transit stations.
The current plans that the state has drawn up for a proposed east-west cross-regional high-capacity transit line in the Cumberland area is to bring the proposed Top End I-285 Perimeter high-capacity transit line west into Cobb County and then have the proposed line veer south away from I-285 west of Cumberland Boulevard and just east of I-75 to a proposed station (Overton Park Station) at Akers Mill Road on the east side of I-75.
The state then has their proposed route of the line continuing south along the east side of I-75 for a few-hundred yards before turning west and crossing I-75 south of the Cobb Energy Center and then running behind (just to the northeast of) Akers Mill Shopping Center and rejoining Akers Mill Road for a proposed station at Akers Mill Road and Galleria Drive (Galleria-Akers Mill Station).
The state then has the proposed route of the line running west for a few-hundred yards along Akers Mill Road to US 41 Cobb Parkway where it turns north on the west side of US 41 Cobb Parkway and comes to another proposed station at the northwestern corner of US 41 Cobb Parkway and Akers Mill Road on roughly the southeastern edge of the Cumberland Mall property (Cumberland Mall Station).
In all, the state has 3 transit stations proposed for the immediate Cumberland area (...these transit plans predate by several years the new Braves stadium under construction to the north of I-285) with another station planned on the east side of the Cumberland area on the south side of I-285 at Akers Mill Road and Powers Ferry Road just inside of Cobb County west of the Chattahoochee River.
Here is a link to the proposed alignment and proposed station sites on the proposed Doraville-Cumberland Top End I-285 Perimeter high-capacity transit line that is part of the completely unfunded Revive285 project: http://www.revive285.com/f/TSPSAInfoSheets.pdf
I think that the state turned the proposed route of that east-west high-capacity transit line north along US 41 Cobb Parkway off of Akers Mill Road because Cobb County business and real estate interests have long have designs on implementing some type of high-capacity transit line along the US 41 Cobb Parkway corridor between the Cumberland and Kennesaw areas....It's just those Cobb County business interests that want that high-capacity transit line along US 41 so badly seem to have no idea of how to properly and adequately fund the construction and the operation of the high-capacity transit line that they so badly desire.
With development patterns changing and favoring mixed-use development in the 21st Century, I can see the Cumberland Mall property likely being redeveloped into some kind of revenue-generating large-scale high-density retail-heavy mixed-use transit-oriented development with multiple mixed-use high-rise buildings adjoining a major multi-modal transit station along a high-capacity rail transit alignment (preferably regional HRT) along US 41 Cobb Parkway.
I can also see the low-density commercial development and parking lots north of I-285 being redeveloped into a large-scale revenue-generating high-density mixed-use transit-oriented development adjoining a multimodal transit station at/around the intersection of Spring Road/Circle 75 Parkway and US 41 Cobb Parkway at the southwest corner of the new Braves stadium property.
From Spring Road and US 41, I would run the proposed high-capacity transit alignment (with likely 3 lines operating along it...a north-south Acworth/Cartersville-ATL Airport line, a north-south Canton-ATL Airport line and an east-west Acworth/Cartersville-Buford/Gainesville Top End I-285 Perimeter line) west along Spring Road to Smyrna via another revenue-generating but low-capacity mixed-use multimodal transit station at the southwest corner of Spring and Campbell roads.
Yeah I just don't think Cumberland, even the portion south of 75 and 285, deserves just one single HRT station.
My proposed alignments differ significantly from those of Revive285, but it looks like we're on the same page regarding the need for Cumberland-to-Midtown and Cumberland-to-Perimeter lines.
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Developing that large lot north of Concord Road/Spring Road, east of Atlanta Road and west of the CSX/W&A right-of-way into a large-scale revenue-generating transit-oriented development adjoining a transit station for Downtown Smyrna is an excellent idea!
An idea has also been floated in the past to turn the abandoned Belmont Hills Shopping Center property at the southwest corner of Windy Hill and Atlanta roads into a revenue-generating mixed-use transit-oriented real estate development adjoining a transit station for the north side of Smyrna.
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Those are some excellent points about the challenges of implementing east-west high-capacity rail transit service (regional HRT line) through the existing Medical Center Station that services the existing north-south MARTA HRT Red Line.
Though, construction costs should not be a problem if the existing MARTA Medical Center Station and the property (specifically the large parking lot to the north of the MARTA Medical Center Station) were to be redeveloped through a joint Public-Private Partnership between MARTA, GRTA and the owner of the private property immediately north of the Medical Center Station were to be redeveloped into a large-scale revenue-generating high-density mixed-use transit-oriented development on top of and adjoining the Medical Center Station (...with offices, retail shops, restaurants and high-end condos and apartments in mixed-use high-rises on top of and around the Medical Center Station...the type of real estate development that could potentially generate hundreds-of-millions of dollars in revenue alone just from the property around that one station).
If a future high-capacity rail transit line along the Top End I-285 Perimeter between Doraville and Cumberland (or Kennesaw/Acworth and Buford/Gainesville) were to be developed properly (as a series of large-scale revenue-generating high-end transit-oriented real estate developments along a high-capacity rail transit line), it would be a line that could potentially generate hundreds-of-millions of dollars in potential transit-operating revenues and profits from P3s (Public-Private Partnerships), real estate leases, Value Capture taxing and Tax Increment Financing.
The land along an east-west Top End I-285 Perimeter high-capacity rail transit line would immediately shoot through the roof and into the stratosphere in monetary value just upon the announcement that construction was beginning on the line.
The "King" and "Queen" tower high-rise office buildings in the Concourse Corporate Center development at the northeast corner of I-285 and GA 400 sold for nearly $500 million back in April of this year.
With the perennially high population and economic growth rates that the Atlanta metro region often enjoys (because of the Atlanta region's excellent logistical location), the commercial real estate along the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter between Doraville and Cumberland would likely become amongst some of the highest-priced high-end commercial real estate on the planet if high-capacity transit (regional HRT) service was to be implemented along the corridor as proposed.
Perhaps. But again, the tunneling is the thing that worries me the most. Not saying it can't be done, but it would be a big obstacle. And Medical Center station might have to be significantly redone, or at the very least, have escalators installed.
But again, I know that...
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It is good that you propose developing a station on Hammond Drive between GA 400 and the Dunwoody Station because the state also has a station proposed for Hammond Drive in the Revive285 station and alignment plans that I linked to above.
...the Revive285 plans include alternatives both along Hammond drive and more closely along 285.
Another thing. I remember hearing somewhere that the Red Line steered well clear of the 285/400 interchange because of lobbying by GADOT. They might be much more accepting to the idea of connecting at Medical Center vs. connecting at Dunwoody, because the latter would require an awkward crossing of 400, as depicted on the map.
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That is excellent that you've got an option for high-capacity transit lines on both the I-75 Northwest and CSX/W&A right-of-ways.
Though, with the rise in popularity of the Marietta Street/Howell Mill Road/Marietta Boulevard corridor northwest of Downtown Atlanta as an option for somewhat high-end high-density urban living and mixed-use development, the Marietta Street/Howell Mill Road/Marietta Boulevard corridor likely might be a better option for high-capacity rail transit service (regional HRT service) than the CSX/W&A right-of-way.
The continuing present and future development and redevelopment along the Marietta Street/Howell Mill Road/Marietta Boulevard corridor could pay for the construction and operation of high-capacity rail transit service along that rising corridor.
In the future, I think that there is a good chance that high-capacity rail transit service will be implemented and operated along both the I-75 and the Marietta Street/Howell Mill Road/Marietta Boulevard corridors to the northwest of Atlanta and into (and through) Cobb County....Both radial transportation corridors need the high-capacity transit service for both economic development and logistical (traffic congestion) reasons.
Hmm. One possibility with the alternative depicted above is that that Green Line stub that extends just north of Bankhead could do precisely that.
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That is an excellent point about the Vinings area presenting a challenge to future regional transit plans along the CSX/W&A RR corridor with NIMBY concerns.
The powerful Vinings Homeowners Association wields quite a bit of political power with regional, state and federal officials....Enough political power to have kept the existing extremely busy CSX/W&A freight rail track from being expanded to 2 tracks through the Vinings area.
The powerful Vinings Homeowners Association has even successfully pressured regional officials to back-off past proposals for high-capacity transit service along the CSX/W&A right-of-way because affluent Vinings residents don't want expanded rail operations through the Vinings area.
Any future high-capacity passenger rail transit service through this area will likely have to be tunneled (along with the existing freight rail track) through the Vinings area so as to attempt to minimize the chances that the project would be halted by local, regional, state and federal officials at the behest of the powerful Vinings Homeowners Association.
Tunneling both future passenger rail transit and freight rail operations through the Vinings area might potentially be enough to overcome any objections to expanded rail operations along the CSX/W&A right-of-way.
Wow, that's--frankly, kind of disturbing. CSX NEEDS at least two rails through Vinings. Hell, CSX is a contributor to our local economy! Sigh...OK, rant over...that being said, yeah, the fewer NIMBY issues, the better.
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I like your idea for expanded commuter bus service.
Though, I do think that a heavily-developed commercial corridor like US 41 Cobb Parkway needs higher-capacity transit service than just commuter bus and/or just Bus Rapid Transit.
US 41 Cobb Parkway needs "self-funded" high-capacity passenger rail transit service (preferably regional HRT service on grade-separated tracks) supplemented by local bus service in-between rail transit stops.
(...High-capacity passenger rail transit service would be "self-funded" along US 41 Cobb Parkway with P3s, Value Capture taxing, Tax Increment Financing and real estate leases of commercial property along the corridor.)
Perhaps it does. But I was actually being fairly pessimistic in my proposals. For instance, if Cobb could get HRT up to the point where the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Northeastern_Railroad]GNRR line[/quote] splits off from the CSX line (near the 75/Canton Connector exit), then a commuter rail line up towards Canton becomes spectacularly easier. Why? Because, practically no train traffic on that line:
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I agree with many on this board that the Atlanta metro region desperately needs a second outer loop (Outer Perimeter).
But politically, the construction of such a loop (no matter how much it may actually be needed to attempt to take through traffic off of metro Atlanta interstates), just seems to be as politically dead as a concept can possibly be.
The state took the proposed route of the highly-controversial proposed road off of the drawing board years ago and the last remaining part of the road (the 411-75 Connector through the Cartersville area) was defeated in court 2 years ago after a 30-year-long court battle in which more was spent by the state to litigate the road then would have been spent to actually build it.
The powers-that-be in the state legislature are so afraid of the road that no one dares even mention or utter the words "Outer Perimeter" or "Northern Arc" down under the Gold Dome.
State political leaders in both parties see the road as certain political death, particularly after the road played a starring role in bringing about the end of the historical dominance of the Georgia Democratic Party 13 years ago....The Outer Perimeter concept is basically totally and completely politically radioactive at this point in time and will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future.
From what I understand, the Northern Arc portion of the Outer Perimeter was estimated to have cost over $2 billion back in the early 2000's were it built, which meant that the whole Outer Perimeter likely would have cost around at least $5 billion had it been built.
Today, an Outer Perimeter road around the outskirts of the Atlanta region would probably cost somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $10 billion, which would be an outlay of money that would be highly-controversial because of the lack of public support for the project.
Georgia state government still has the "Northern Arc" portion of the road on the drawing board as proposed "East-West Highway" surface route connecting the Georgia side of the Chattanooga area with Habersham County through the mountainous areas of extreme North Georgia....But the highway proposal has no funding and is reportedly used only for purposes of transportation modeling and nothing else. http://www.dot.ga.gov/BuildSmart/programs/documents/GRIP/Facts/EastWestHighwayFactSheet.pdf
Again, it would probably come in stages. Really, the political challenges for an outer perimeter could be roughly broken down into two segments: The portion east of 575 and north of 85 (northeast), and everywhere else. But I don't want them doing what Nashville did and building a half-complete outer loop. This thing at the very least needs to be built for where the biggest needs are, which, I think, would be north of Atlanta. But yeah, political issues. Just a few of them.
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Turning the existing MARTA Green Line into a regional HRT transit loop is an EXCELLENT idea....One of the absolute best ideas for rail transit expansion that I have ever seen on this forum or anywhere on the web, hands down!!!!
Thanks!
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Hopefully they will be able to get the funds to accomplish the kind of large-scale regional transit expansion that is needed within a shorter time frame.
If transit expansion is funded and financed with large-scale P3s (Public-Private Partnerships), real estate leases, Value Capture taxing, Tax Increment Financing, inflation-indexed distance-based fares and the aggressive sales of private sponsorships both large and small, a lot of ground can likely be made up in a very short period of time on the long-stalled transit front.
As Red as this state is, I'm cautiously optimistic that our business lobby is starting to get on board with transit. While far from a perfect bill, I think the transportation bill that has been signed into law is a decent first step. At the very least, it signals that we may be ready for more. And we do need more.
I think you overstate the political differences. North Fulton is probably more different from South Fulton than Cobb or Gwinnett is.
I'm not overstating the stark political (and cultural and social) differences between the traditionally predominantly white, conservative and Republican OTP/Northern suburbs/exurbs and the traditionally largely and predominantly black, liberal and Democrat ITP urban core/Southern inner suburbs at all, my friend.
It is those stark political/cultural/social differences between the more black and liberal urban core ITP and the white and conservative suburbs/exurbs OTP that has been one of the major reasons why MARTA only operated in Fulton and DeKalb counties for the first 43 years of its existence.
There was actually disagreement very early-on when MARTA was being formed as to whether MARTA's HRT system would be designed to appeal to and function as a regional commuter rail system of sorts for white suburbanites who commuted into and out of the city during rush hour or whether MARTA's HRT system would be designed to transport black urbanites between housing projects and inner-city neighborhoods and jobs in employment centers like Downtown and the Airport (...other regional employment centers like Midtown, Buckhead, Perimeter and Cumberland had not really yet come into existence as the large major employment centers that we know them to be today when MARTA was being formed and designed in 1960's).
Massive white-flight and demographic shifts within the City of Atlanta, South Fulton County and DeKalb eventually automatically decided MARTA's late 20th Century fate as a transporter of lower-income black urbanites between predominantly black inner-city areas and major job centers like Downtown in the urban core.
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Originally Posted by bu2
There are just a lot of parochial politicians (I'm including city of Atlanta, not just Cobb).
This is a good point.
Political parochialism on both sides of the white conservative suburban/exurban OTP and black/liberal urban ITP political divide has been one of the major reasons why a large major metro transit agency like MARTA has been confined to only 2 counties for most of the first 44 years of MARTA's existence until formerly overwhelmingly predominantly-white, now overwhelmingly predominantly-black Clayton County finally accepted MARTA expansion in 2014.
Conservative white suburbanites in the suburbs have not wanted MARTA expanded into their areas for fear that it would bring black urbanites out to predominantly-white suburbs.
Conservative white suburbanites also have not wanted MARTA expanded outside of Fulton and DeKalb counties because those conservative white suburbanites have not wanted a black/liberal-dominated urban transit agency operating in the suburbs that conservative white suburbanites were not able to control and dominate politically.
Meanwhile, the black and liberal urbanites who have controlled MARTA since its inception in the early 1970's have not wanted MARTA to expand outside of Fulton and DeKalb counties because they did not want to share their hard-fought political power over the agency with conservative white suburbanites in areas like Cobb, Clayton and Gwinnett counties.
My Purple Line alternative up I-75 was given far better feedback than the one up the northwest CSX route. So let's go with that one instead. Here's what my system map would look like with that in place:
This would make commuting from Smyrna and Cumberland quite a bit more convenient, but I'm still leery about NIMBY issues on the NW 75 corridor.
Hmm. I do know that already, development speculation has begun on the N400 corridor. How much of that is induced by potential future transit, I can't say, but it is worth noting.
Also keep in mind what I've proposed, even under fantastically optimistic conditions (minimal NIMBY issues, a Congress that gets its **** together and actually is willing to fund projects such as these, etc.), all of these HRT expansions alone would probably take over a decade to go from planning-to-operating. This is why I thought it was so important to consider not just what lines to build but in what order to build them.
Regarding TOD centers, well, perhaps, but I'd like to get firm commitments from developers before adding stations for the primary purpose of additional development, especially since plenty of existing stations could take that on before any future stations you could. I'm not a big fan of applying "if you build it, [the development] will come" to HRT.
Early on, I toyed with the idea of running a line out to Stone Mountain. It is not a bad idea, and it certainly could be added to the system I've got here.
Hmm. My Top-End line could be a starting point for that. I think such a thing would have to be planned further down the road, however. Plus I think it makes more sense to run such lines into downtown instead of Perimeter for a number of reasons. But who knows, the numbers just might justify a Cartersville-Perimeter Center-Gainesville line.
Yeah I just don't think Cumberland, even the portion south of 75 and 285, deserves just one single HRT station.
My proposed alignments differ significantly from those of Revive285, but it looks like we're on the same page regarding the need for Cumberland-to-Midtown and Cumberland-to-Perimeter lines.
Perhaps. But again, the tunneling is the thing that worries me the most. Not saying it can't be done, but it would be a big obstacle. And Medical Center station might have to be significantly redone, or at the very least, have escalators installed.
But again, I know that...
...the Revive285 plans include alternatives both along Hammond drive and more closely along 285.
Another thing. I remember hearing somewhere that the Red Line steered well clear of the 285/400 interchange because of lobbying by GADOT. They might be much more accepting to the idea of connecting at Medical Center vs. connecting at Dunwoody, because the latter would require an awkward crossing of 400, as depicted on the map.
Hmm. One possibility with the alternative depicted above is that that Green Line stub that extends just north of Bankhead could do precisely that.
Wow, that's--frankly, kind of disturbing. CSX NEEDS at least two rails through Vinings. Hell, CSX is a contributor to our local economy! Sigh...OK, rant over...that being said, yeah, the fewer NIMBY issues, the better.
Perhaps it does. But I was actually being fairly pessimistic in my proposals. For instance, if Cobb could get HRT up to the point where the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Northeastern_Railroad]GNRR line
splits off from the CSX line (near the 75/Canton Connector exit), then a commuter rail line up towards Canton becomes spectacularly easier. Why? Because, practically no train traffic on that line:
Again, it would probably come in stages. Really, the political challenges for an outer perimeter could be roughly broken down into two segments: The portion east of 575 and north of 85 (northeast), and everywhere else. But I don't want them doing what Nashville did and building a half-complete outer loop. This thing at the very least needs to be built for where the biggest needs are, which, I think, would be north of Atlanta. But yeah, political issues. Just a few of them.
Thanks!
As Red as this state is, I'm cautiously optimistic that our business lobby is starting to get on board with transit. While far from a perfect bill, I think the transportation bill that has been signed into law is a decent first step. At the very least, it signals that we may be ready for more. And we do need more.[/quote]
Interesting map on the trains. Some of those lines are really busy.
And those numbers might be low. That Emory-Decatur CSX line shows 0-4 a day. And yet somehow they have one in morning and one in afternoon rush hour every day!
Dekalb County was overwhelmingly White in 1971 when the current tax passed as was South Fulton.
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Yeup, I understood that. I was trying to say that modes of fixed guideway transit don't typically mix, and the GRTA/MARTA HRT that you were talking about would be the only such thing in the country. The commuter rail part was put in as an exemption to the rule, but only when higher entities own the tracks (Amtrak, UP, CSX, DOT, etc.)
