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I explained to her that I was not saying that, because there are black people with perfect GPAs and perfect scores who don't need any help, but that black people do get a boost in admissions, and that that was part of why Morehouse students were so successful in getting into top grad schools. I saw the wheels turning in her head, and then she mentioned that she got into UGA law with a 152 LSAT. White co-worker piped up that he got rejected with his 154 LSAT. Eventually, my black co-worker saw my point and agreed.
I just don't see the problem with blacks getting a boost in admissions. One the arguments against affirmative action has always been that it undermines the credibility of blacks who excel (as some have argued in this thread), and perhaps that is unavoidable. But you still have to look at the whole person, not just tests and grades which may well be biased. The playing field has to be leveled, and it would help if white folks quit getting so histrionic about it. Just step back and let somebody else have a chance.
I just don't see the problem with blacks getting a boost in admissions. One the arguments against affirmative action has always been that it undermines the credibility of blacks who excel (as some have argued in this thread), and perhaps that is unavoidable. But you still have to look at the whole person, not just tests and grades which may well be biased. The playing field has to be leveled, and it would help if white folks quit getting so histrionic about it. Just step back and let somebody else have a chance.
Well they problem that I see is that it's a zero-sum game often times. If a law school has 150 spots in its incoming class, and 15 of those spots go to people who wouldn't otherwise be qualified, then it's pretty unfair to the people who were qualified that could have had those 15 spots.
The problem here is that a black kid that grows up in John's Creek whose father gets paid $200k/year gets a boost, and the white kid like myself who grew up poor in rural northeast Georgia and went to a crap high school and somehow managed to do well anyway is not given a boost.
That's my problem with the affirmative action/diversity initiatives. I think it should focus on more than just race. If you use something like socioeconomic status, it's more fair to everybody, and it still does the same things to give minorities a boost who actually need it.
Well they problem that I see is that it's a zero-sum game often times. If a law school has 150 spots in its incoming class, and 15 of those spots go to people who wouldn't otherwise be qualified, then it's pretty unfair to the people who were qualified that could have had those 15 spots.
The problem here is that a black kid that grows up in John's Creek whose father gets paid $200k/year gets a boost, and the white kid like myself who grew up poor in rural northeast Georgia and went to a crap high school and somehow managed to do well anyway is not given a boost.
That's my problem with the affirmative action/diversity initiatives. I think it should focus on more than just race. If you use something like socioeconomic status, it's more fair to everybody, and it still does the same things to give minorities a boost who actually need it.
The thing is there are very few black kids who grow up in Johns Creek with 200K a year income. Also, considering how small that number is, it would also be fair to say (in my opinion) that because wealthy black kids in affluent communities are in such small numbers, very few will actually need affirmative action because they would statistically probably be more likely to score higher than most kids who come from low to middle class areas.
Well they problem that I see is that it's a zero-sum game often times. If a law school has 150 spots in its incoming class, and 15 of those spots go to people who wouldn't otherwise be qualified, then it's pretty unfair to the people who were qualified that could have had those 15 spots.
I'm just saying it may be time for white folks to move beyond this business about what's "fair" and who is "best qualified." Fair according to whom? And best qualified according to whose standard?
Did anyone ever ask whether it was fair when Native Americans were booted off their ancestral lands and forced to speak a new language? When blacks were repressed by Jim Crow and not even allowed to use a public restroom? When women were subjected to sexual assault or denied the right to own property? When Japanese Americans were locked up in prison camps? When gays are told they can't get married or serve in the military? When poor whites were sold as convict labor? When Hispanics were relegated to working in the fields and Chinese Americans were forced to work on the railroads for almost nothing ?
And the list goes on and on.
In the big picture many whites seem to be doing okay. Even the handful that get squeezed out of Harvard by a black student with lower test scores still have many other options for top flight law schools and successful careers.
The thing is there are very few black kids who grow up in Johns Creek with 200K a year income. Also, considering how small that number is, it would also be fair to say (in my opinion) that because wealthy black kids in affluent communities are in such small numbers, very few will actually need affirmative action because they would statistically probably be more likely to score higher than most kids who come from low to middle class areas.
This is very true. The result is that a black kid who grows up in the nice neighborhood scores very well on the LSAT (say a 165, which is around 95th percentile I think), and gets to go to Harvard when the typical Harvard has an LSAT of over 172.
Arjay, I agree that people certain groups of people need a boost. You and I are on the same side here. I just think we can look at it a little more comprehensively to make sure that everybody who needs a boost gets one.
This is all getting a little off-topic. I never intended to argue the pros and cons of affirmative action, and I'm not saying that the only reason any black person is ever successful is because of affirmative action. I'm generally in agreement that affirmative action is a good thing. The point I am making here is that there is no reason for a white person to go to a predominantly black HBCU like Morehouse or Howard, because the white person will not necessarily receive all of the benefits of going to the HBCU that the URMs who go there enjoy. That's my point as it relates to the subject of this thread.
Great points arjay, and those that most people tend to miss. In the grand scheme of things white americans still dominate the economic, social, and political picture.
No matter how much the conservatives, their various think tanks, and their weak-kneed so-called "liberal"enablers in the media want to spin this 30 year-old narrative that somehow white men are "losing"...the reality is, white men have been able to stay on top of the economic, political, and social pyramid of the world (at least the ones from wealthy families, anyways).
A college-educated black man may have at the most 2-3 job offers, while an equivalent-educated white man will easily have 8 to 10 job offers tops. In many cases even a white man with a criminal record will likely find employment more easily than an educated black man without one. Unemployment for white men may stand at 6 or 7%, but for black men it will easily top 16%.
When a society is literally designed to suit needs of one group at the expense of all the others, such aspects are to be expected. That is not say that black men cannot find success in this country. You won't any "woe is me" excuse-making here, no sir. But it does illuminate the reality that the road to economic success for African American men like myself is much more precarious and has precious little margin for error.
If I pull out my wallet a little too fast for a police officer's comfort, if I come off a bit too aggressive in conversation with my non-black peers at work, if I get into a intractable domestic situation not of my own making with a woman, especially one of another ethnic group, I will easily find my physical, economic, and social life cut short pretty fast.
Take it or leave it, that's simply the way the ball bounces. Don't hate the player; hate the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
I'm just saying it may be time for white folks to move beyond this business about what's "fair" and who is "best qualified." Fair according to whom? And best qualified according to whose standard?
Did anyone ever ask whether it was fair when Native Americans were booted off their ancestral lands and forced to speak a new language? When blacks were repressed by Jim Crow and not even allowed to use a public restroom? When women were subjected to sexual assault or denied the right to own property? When Japanese Americans were locked up in prison camps? When gays are told they can't get married or serve in the military? When poor whites were sold as convict labor? When Hispanics were relegated to working in the fields and Chinese Americans were forced to work on the railroads for almost nothing ?
And the list goes on and on.
In the big picture many whites seem to be doing okay. Even the handful that get squeezed out of Harvard by a black student with lower test scores still have many other options for top flight law schools and successful careers.
Arjay, I agree that people certain groups of people need a boost. You and I are on the same side here. I just think we can look at it a little more comprehensively to make sure that everybody who needs a boost gets one.
This is all getting a little off-topic. I never intended to argue the pros and cons of affirmative action, and I'm not saying that the only reason any black person is ever successful is because of affirmative action. I'm generally in agreement that affirmative action is a good thing. The point I am making here is that there is no reason for a white person to go to a predominantly black HBCU like Morehouse or Howard, because the white person will not necessarily receive all of the benefits of going to the HBCU that the URMs who go there enjoy. That's my point as it relates to the subject of this thread.
No matter how much the conservatives, their various think tanks, and their weak-kneed so-called "liberal"enablers in the media want to spin this 30 year-old narrative that somehow white men are "losing"...the reality is, white men have been able to stay on top of the economic, political, and social pyramid of the world (at least the ones from wealthy families, anyways).
One of the reasons that narrative has more vitality these days is the tanking economy and the increasing disparity between the well to do and everyone else. A lot of whites have seen themselves fall from the middle class and they no longer perceive an upwardly mobile future for themselves or their children.
Quote:
If I pull out my wallet a little too fast for a police officer's comfort, if I come off a bit too aggressive in conversation with my non-black peers at work, if I get into a intractable domestic situation not of my own making with a woman, especially one of another ethnic group, I will easily find my physical, economic, and social life cut short pretty fast.
Good points, Snake. White guys probably need to watch themselves in some of those situations, too.
Same here. I have always said what I thought of whoever. What I say here about blacks, hispanics, whites and what not is what I tell anyone around me.
What I have noticed from living in Atlanta, Ga (I will not generalize and state it happens throughout the South) is that people in general do not have the gall to say it to their faces. Up North they will tell you how 'sorry' you are in a NY minute and you better prove otherwise. In Atlanta, not so much. It is unbelieveable how many unprofessional, lazy and incompetent people are just getting paid because no one has the guts to tell the person: "Hey you are screwed up and this is what you're doing wrong". NO ONE does that and organizations suffer. Families suffer. You name it. No one has the gall to even ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG. This entire APS scandal sharade is a huge example of such. No one is admiting wrong doing. They are rationalizing their actions blaming 'pressure', NCLB policies, but the BLUF is: the board could not trust their own children to learn, the board could not trust their teachers to teach, the parents do not care or are not involved, the massive majority of these schools were in all black communities, the Atlanta metro schools have been having problems for the longest time (accreditation loss anyone? Clayton County) in also massive all black communities that are less priviledged, on constant public assistance with systemic historical socio-economic issues that hence reflect on the quality of instruction they receive in schools, that hence again, reflect on what caliber of students/children are attending such schools.
Blacks have a problem pointing finding blame when it is their own doing the deed (the so-called snitching crap). Whites feel guilty, funny, ashamed, politically incorrect and whatever else one wants to call it to categorically observe where the problem really lies. Hipanics do not want to be marginalized like Blacks are but are not fairing all that much better but at least in Atlanta they do not have much representation to screw anything up.
All of that to say: Nothing would encourage me to join a HBCU. Looking at the big picture a degree is a degree but frankly of all people who I came accross who made it in places that are not majority black they graduated GT, Emory and Ga State. If you want to stay where you feel comfortable and sit at home I guess HBCU is targeted for Blacks and if Atlanta is your hub by all means.
I feel where you're coming from, but Graduating from a HBCU was of great benefit to me.
For certain blacks, you're left out of the loop when attending schools that are predominantly white.
I started out at a mostly white high school and was left out of study groups and other information that the "majority" students kept amongst their own circles.
I finished high school at a mostly black school and attended a HBCU for undergrad.
Was able to network, people actually took time out to look out for me, and I had access to other resources that are kept from minorities at "majority" schools unless they break their necks and are forced to try 3 times as hard.
I began grad school at a major school and plan to finish grad school at a major uni, but I wouldn't have been able to make it without the assistance I received at my HBCU.
Naaah. Extremism, Schemism. My "circle" is wide and such views are quite mainstream.
FWIW, my cajones are in good working order, if anyone has questions.
"Hitler's supporters were mainstream.....
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