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Over 200,000 people pass through the 400/285 intercahnge each day. That project would have cost about $500 million IIRC.
The South Dekalb line is projected (by MARTA) to have just under 30,000 boardings a day at a project cost of just under $2 billion.
See a difference?
It is pathetic to try to make this a race issue when the ROI facts are so obvious.
Agree(I voted for TSPLOST, and live in Buckhead.)
Progressives love to make things racial, and before somebody says I would not want my money going to a black area I have plenty of my money invested in S. DeKalb so I want the rail there.
So the solution is doing nothing to improve the flow of one of the most important interchanges in the region? A new interchange might not fix everything, but it certainly would be an improvement and your '30 second' number shows your cluelessness.
Build both, but don't don't try touting the interchange as more necessary than a transit line, nor as some kind of perfect solution that will magically make all traffic problems disappear. Not once have I said don't build the intersection, merely pointed out that transit is just as important as roads.
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They would? People, in large numbers, don't prefer that a lot of places MARTA already rund. Making over-the-top, blanket statements like this ruins and shred of credibility you had.
A quarter million people riding the existing rail system is nothing to sneeze at. One only needs to look at places where the trains are packed, even if they take a little longer than the time that Google Maps spits out for A to B. Your roads-only stance has done more to shred your credibility than my realism even with (realistic) blanket statements has to mine.
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So if there are no alternatives already on the I-20 corridor, perhaps a prudent thing to do would be to run some bus routes and connect the area. Why would you jump $2 billion in, before doing this step first?
Because $2 billion now is better than $10 million now, then $50 million a little later, then $2 billion later (assuming inflation and cost of construction doesn't climb ANY). If you have the demand already in place, why take baby steps? If it were the first MARTA rail line being built, that would be one thing, but it's not.
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Bus routes that are inefficient and don't move enough people do disappear. I don't know of one bus route that had a high ridership that was axed. Doing that would make no sense. The bus routes that don't have enough riders go away. THAT IS A GOOD THING. The flexibility this provides for the city is valuable. Can the rider occasionally get screwed? Sure, but such is life. Spending $2 billion to add 15-20,000 daily riders is ridiculous. For that sum of money, we should demand more.
Rail also can't be rerouted to serve an area with strong political pull like buses can. If MARTA's existing buses just ran straight down the thoroughfares they might be a lot better than they are now, but seeing as most of them end up meandering all over the place, they lose their utility rapidly.
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There is an interstate highway. That didn't stop the development on the I-285 corridor on the north side of town. Perhaps there is more at play to the lack of corporate development of South Dekalb than just "there is no MARTA." C'mon son
An interstate highway that's a nightmare to drive along in the morning or afternoon. Most of the boom of Sandy Springs and Dunwoody occured after MARTA reached those locations. They had the heavy rail connection to the city and the airport that the I-20 corridor currently lacks. Not sure what you're getting at with that "more to lack of development" statement, if it's the poor economic conditions, then just take a ride along the Blue line and look outside the windows. A lot of that area has turned around dramatically in just the past five years. While MARTA may not be the cause of the redevelopment, it would be difficult to say (with a straight face at least) that the presence of a MARTA rail line had no impact at all on the gentrification.
All this "political" crap is a shame...The focus should be on Commuter Rail Startup
Its the FASTEST WAY out of the traffic and Quite possibly the Cheapest. The problem with expansion of any existing roads and heavy rail is the amount of time it takes...From conception to actual use is something beyond 5 years...I cud easily see the "redesign" of the 400/285 interchange easily takin 10 years...Same goes for any kind of MARTA expansion...
2025 before Anyone Boards at the new stations...I for one am Turned off by Long Far away Dates...Were only in 2013 just about...I Wouldnt be all excited about Only a few miles of Road or Rail in 10 Years...Id Rather wait 10 years for Dozens of miles of Expanded Rail and roads instead of draggin it out over 50 freakin yrs...My point Being I think in 5 years or less time with The rails already in place we can Negotiate with. The freight companies, buy some trains, build some simple platforms, and get the Damn trains running Already...I just dont see why Atl cant get a grip on this already...People are movin to the Metro evryday and that just means more and more cars...So it just makes sense to me In order to catch up with the growth is to Implement Commuter Rail...Then we can have Breathing. Room to expand the more time consuming Heavy Rail and Interstates. Oh and Dont ask me How to pay for it Ask world class cities such as Nyc,Tokyo,London,Paris,Chicago,Berlin,Shanghai How they do it!
Most of the boom of Sandy Springs and Dunwoody occured after MARTA reached those locations. They had the heavy rail connection to the city and the airport that the I-20 corridor currently lacks. Not sure what you're getting at with that "more to lack of development" statement, if it's the poor economic conditions, then just take a ride along the Blue line and look outside the windows. A lot of that area has turned around dramatically in just the past five years. While MARTA may not be the cause of the redevelopment, it would be difficult to say (with a straight face at least) that the presence of a MARTA rail line had no impact at all on the gentrification.
This is why the Perimeter Center has grown to be one of the largest edge cities in America. All those mid-rise office buildings would not be there if not for MARTA's Red Line. The Blue Line comment is correct. Talking with older people in my neighborhood I've asked when it things start to turn around. Overwhelmingly MARTA was mentioned as the start of the turn around. It allowed residence quick, easy access to jobs Downtown. something that was provided by streetcars, until the system was torn up in the 50's.
I never tried to make it out to be racial, more political than anything since South DeKalb is majority Democrats. This state is ran up Republicans, so red areas will always get first chance at improvements from state funds.
Build both, but don't don't try touting the interchange as more necessary than a transit line, nor as some kind of perfect solution that will magically make all traffic problems disappear. Not once have I said don't build the intersection, merely pointed out that transit is just as important as roads.
I haven't said that either.
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A quarter million people riding the existing rail system is nothing to sneeze at. One only needs to look at places where the trains are packed, even if they take a little longer than the time that Google Maps spits out for A to B. Your roads-only stance has done more to shred your credibility than my realism even with (realistic) blanket statements has to mine.
I haven't taken a roads only stance. I have taken a stance that any multi-billion expansion needs to offer a solid ROI and serve a real transportation need. We don't have enough money to be spending on 'nice-to-haves' when there are enough 'need-to-haves.'
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Because $2 billion now is better than $10 million now, then $50 million a little later, then $2 billion later (assuming inflation and cost of construction doesn't climb ANY). If you have the demand already in place, why take baby steps? If it were the first MARTA rail line being built, that would be one thing, but it's not.
So 15,000-20,000 people riding a $2 billion rail expansion makes mroe sense than spending $100 million and reliably funding expanded, reliable bus service for years to come?
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Rail also can't be rerouted to serve an area with strong political pull like buses can. If MARTA's existing buses just ran straight down the thoroughfares they might be a lot better than they are now, but seeing as most of them end up meandering all over the place, they lose their utility rapidly.
You make it sound like an easy fix that doesn't require $2 billion to attract 15,000-20,000 rail riders.
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An interstate highway that's a nightmare to drive along in the morning or afternoon. Most of the boom of Sandy Springs and Dunwoody occured after MARTA reached those locations. They had the heavy rail connection to the city and the airport that the I-20 corridor currently lacks. Not sure what you're getting at with that "more to lack of development" statement, if it's the poor economic conditions, then just take a ride along the Blue line and look outside the windows. A lot of that area has turned around dramatically in just the past five years. While MARTA may not be the cause of the redevelopment, it would be difficult to say (with a straight face at least) that the presence of a MARTA rail line had no impact at all on the gentrification.
So you are abandoning the 'transportation' aspect of the discussion and making this about redevelopment. If that is your stance, I think you could have some valid points. However, on transportation merit and ROI, this line is an absolute loser. I am very skeptical that this area will ever experience the development that the Northside (Sandy Springs) of town experienced. Sandy Springs boomed for a variety of reasons. MARTA was one, but it was also the location near the high income, educated work force that resided north of town. This workforce is lacking in South Dekalb and would make any 'turnaround' to the area a long, long process. I believe regional transit funds should go to solve regional transportation issues and not fall to social-engineering, redevelopment plans.
I believe regional transit funds should go to solve regional transportation issues and not fall to social-engineering, redevelopment plans.
Like the traffic congestion along I-20 in South DeKalb that rivals that of 400? There is a large population in South DeKalb that wants transit, but must rely on car to get them to work. There is lots of research to show that road expansion will not solve congestion, but transit along the same corridor will reduce congestion and attract high-quality development.
Like the traffic congestion along I-20 in South DeKalb that rivals that of 400? There is a large population in South DeKalb that wants transit, but must rely on car to get them to work. There is lots of research to show that road expansion will not solve congestion, but transit along the same corridor will reduce congestion and attract high-quality development.
So run some buses along the corridor first before spending $2 billion on a route to attract 15,000-20,000 people a day. That will not have a dramatic impact on regional transportation.
You spout of the same lame talking points every discussion but ignore the fiscal realities we are facing on the local, state, and federal level.
So run some buses along the corridor first before spending $2 billion on a route to attract 15,000-20,000 people a day. That will not have a dramatic impact on regional transportation.
You spout of the same lame talking points every discussion but ignore the fiscal realities we are facing on the local, state, and federal level.
What your saying is the top-end-perimeter is more important than South DeKalb?
What your saying is the top-end-perimeter is more important than South DeKalb?
I didn't take that from gt's comments. Instead of spending $2 bil on one rail project, how bout 2 $500 mil projects improving traffic efficiency. Save a billion dollars, take care of problems in both locations.
I didn't take that from gt's comments. Instead of spending $2 bil on one rail project, how bout 2 $500 mil projects improving traffic efficiency. Save a billion dollars, take care of problems in both locations.
Just to turn around and spend more than $2 billion later to build the high capacity transit? I-20 does already have the XPress bus service, but it only runs during the peak periods, and primarily in the peak direction. Furthermore, The entirety of the Conyers bus services have a capacity of about 2000 people total. Two 6-car heavy rail trains have that kind of capacity, and they would serve more than just Conyers and Panola road (ok, so they wouldn't actually serve Conyers at all at first). If you already have the demand, why ultimately spend more on half-solutions before the final solution especially when you know you'll have the ridership for the full solution from the beginning?
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