New T-Splost Chances Rising (Atlanta: neighborhoods, college, most dangerous)

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

If you are going to argue "time savings" as the key decision metric, you need to use it for both projects and can't just try to cherry pick numbers from one and ignore the other.

What do you mean by "cherry picking?" What numbers am I ignoring? Clifton Corridor increases mobility across an entire corridor. 400/285 interchange makes one single point along a corridor move slightly better while ignoring the entire rest of the corridor.

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Do you really think that a light rail line from Lindbergh to CDC is really going to save anyone time versus other, existing methods of transportation? While there is some periodic traffic in that area, it isn't constant and only occurs in rush periods as well. Additionally, when you factor in the transfer at Lindbergh plus whatever other MARTA ride is required, where does any sort of time savings come from?

By simply not driving, you gain a significant amount of productive time. Even if you carpool as a passenger (how many do this and never drive?), you can do more on a train (or even a bus) than in the confines of a car. This so-called "convenience factor" MUST be taken into consideration when discussing true time savings of transit vs. personal vehicles.
Well, the reason the traffic occurs during the rush periods, is that's when most people are commuting. So that's when transit serves the most people. Not sure what point you're making here.

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Again, you miss this point.

The LRT provides no time savings over driving when you factor in the transfer and other transit time. Where in Atlanta would it be faster to ride MARTA to CDC (with this light rail) than to drive? Heck, you could live right next to a MARTA station anywhere in Atlanta and get to the CDC faster by driving when you figure in both transit trips and the transfer.

Using "time savings" as justification for the LRT project is a losing argument.

If the Clifton Corridor is built, it will be faster to reach it from people along the GA-400 corridor, and the I-20 East corridor once it's built. It will probably also be faster for people boarding the train in Doraville, and definitely faster for people coming from west of Atlanta on MARTA. Even for the people that still drive, the transit takes a lot of cars off the road which makes their drives easier and faster.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

It isn't selfish, it is concern for the future of the country. I oppose any wasteful spending, regardless of it's location/use. You appear to tolerate it and are happy as long as 'you get yours.'

There you go, touting that tax bagger horn again. Oh no the country's gonna fail!!!!!
Why do I get mines? I don't travel to Emory/CDC.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MattCW

What do you mean by "cherry picking?" What numbers am I ignoring? Clifton Corridor increases mobility across an entire corridor. 400/285 interchange makes one single point along a corridor move slightly better while ignoring the entire rest of the corridor.

It isn't going to solve all the problems, but it solves the largest problem for not just those taking those off ramps, but also everyone transiting through that intersection.

By simply not driving, you gain a significant amount of productive time. Even if you carpool as a passenger (how many do this and never drive?), you can do more on a train (or even a bus) than in the confines of a car. This so-called "convenience factor" MUST be taken into consideration when discussing true time savings of transit vs. personal vehicles.
Well, the reason the traffic occurs during the rush periods, is that's when most people are commuting. So that's when transit serves the most people. Not sure what point you're making here.

MARTA's own estimate is that it would only add 5,000 new riders. That doesn't benefit many people. It might offer some productivity for those, but how many people are really getting work done on MARTA? A small minority.

You touted the corridor LRT as a big time saver. I say it isn't. That corridor is only clogged for a few hours a day, so if you are going to say the I285/400 interchange will only have a significant impact during rush hours, the same must also be said of the LRT line. You neglected to make this point... hence cherry picking the facts to try to make the case for LRT.

If the Clifton Corridor is built, it will be faster to reach it from people along the GA-400 corridor, and the I-20 East corridor once it's built. It will probably also be faster for people boarding the train in Doraville, and definitely faster for people coming from west of Atlanta on MARTA. Even for the people that still drive, the transit takes a lot of cars off the road which makes their drives easier and faster.

Ok... so lets assume that you live 1 mile from the Doraville station. You think you could walk/fly/drive to the station, board a train, transfer, board a train, exit train, walk to your final destination faster than you could simply drive to the destination? I don't think that is the case, hence NO time savings at all, which was your metric chosen to justify this route.

[ATLTJL]

But.....but.....but the T-SPLOST was an all or nothing deal and there is no Plan B!!!!!!!

Of course there is always a plan B to a poorly written bill.

As for rebuilding the 285/400 interchange, I see it as emergency construction that must be done immediately. Not as a matter of increasing capacity, but as a matter of public safety. I don't have any statistics available, but just my common sense tells me that this intersection is a total death trap. I have never been anywhere else where an entrance ramp dumps you in the fast lane of a road where people are going over 70 mph and gives you like 200 feet to get over. Especially not after spinning you around a curve where can't really go above 30 mph safely. It's ridiculous and a matter of safety. I don't know how many people are killed at that spot, but it has to be a lot.

[alco89]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

But.....but.....but the T-SPLOST was an all or nothing deal and there is no Plan B!!!!!!!

Of course there is always a plan B to a poorly written bill.

As for rebuilding the 285/400 interchange, I see it as emergency construction that must be done immediately. Not as a matter of increasing capacity, but as a matter of public safety. I don't have any statistics available, but just my common sense tells me that this intersection is a total death trap. I have never been anywhere else where an entrance ramp dumps you in the fast lane of a road where people are going over 70 mph and gives you like 200 feet to get over. Especially not after spinning you around a curve where can't really go above 30 mph safely. It's ridiculous and a matter of safety. I don't know how many people are killed at that spot, but it has to be a lot.

The 285/Stone Mountain Freeway interchange is like that too, it's just not as heavily used. It's extremely dangerous and I can't believe someone at GDOT thought it was a good idea to build them that way.

[arjay57]

While I agree that there's a safety hazard for folks driving 70+ mph, I guess the skeptics would say that still doesn't justify these projects from an economic or time standpoint. Nobody is being forced to drive on these interchanges or cruise at high speeds.

[cqholt]

Terrible design by GDOT 40 years ago. I don't understand why the tolls are being lifted on 400, when that money could go towards remodel of existing interchange?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by cqholt

**** poor design by GDOT 40 years ago. I don't understand why the tolls are being lifted on 400, when that money could go towards remodel of existing interchange?

I agree with the idea of keeping the tolls. In fact, I am in favor of tolling more highways. The gas tax is no longer an effective way of raising funds for maintenance due to rising fuel efficiency.

I do, however, understand why the toll is coming down. That was part of the original deal of building the road. Breaking promises to those who vote is a bad idea.

[kferq]

gtcorndog is wrong when he says the light rail would never be faster than driving from CDC/Emory to Lindbergh. Just as transit backers often do not include wait or transfer times, transit critics do not include the time it takes to walk to and get in or out of the parking deck to or from the hospital, office, classroom, or laboratory (~ 15 minutes at CDC, slightly higher at Emory). MARTA would be much faster than driving to Lindbergh from 3:30 to about 6:30 every evening and you could get some work done while you were waiting! Nor does he include the costs of parking decks: there is very little land left for parking at either of these sites. Building underground decks below new buildings (as they are doing at the new hospital tower) is expensive. Finally, while he understands that increased road development allows increased employment, he does not realize that transit provides the same benefit.

Why is the ability to expand at Emory/CDC important? Yes, there are fewer jobs at Emory and the CDC then in the entire GA 400 corridor and less room to grow. However, the role of the research University in bringing jobs to a city far exceeds employment at that site and the people who come here are more than just the employees. Having a top 20 reasearch University acts as magnet for talent in the city and helps keep talent that would otherwise leave the State. Obviously Emory is a national leader in biomedical science and chemistry (almost all wet lab space for Emory is on Clifton Road), second only to GA Tech in overall patents and start ups buisnesses. Metro Atlanta is highly dependent on Emory in the training in the professionals and academics (medicine, law, buisness, arts, social sciences and humanities). The Clifton Campus has the only NCI Cancer center in the state and Emory Hospital on Clifton has the highest acuity rating (it takes care of the sickest patients) in the nation. The Children's hospital on Clifton is rated in the top 10 in the nation. Would fortune 500 companies locate here if they could not get top rated medical care? Would Piedmont, Northside, and Wellstar provide the care they do without the legion of former Emory trainees or faculty on their medical and nursing staffs? The benefit of having the CDC in terms of global prestige is enormous for Atlanta, but it also serves as an magnet for talent that supplies the labs of our biotechnology companies, creates enourmous rescources for Atlantas NGO sector (there was that Gates Foundation grant recently: why is that NGO in Dectur anyway?), and expertise for Atlantas bio-informatics industry. If you want to slow the local economy, choking the Clifton area's growth is a good way to start.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by kferq

gtcorndog is wrong when he says the light rail would never be faster than driving from CDC/Emory to Lindbergh.

Reading comprehension fail.

I said it would not be faster when you include the other portions of the trip, including getting to the original MARTA station, the transfer to the original train, the train ride to Lindbergh and then the transfer to the LRT.

If you want to argue that we need LRT as a pro-growth tool, there is more merit to that than marketing it as a cost-effective transportation solution, which it clearly isn't.