Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
regardless of the date, roswell did have railroad tracks. but i fail to see how that's relevant to why roswell should or shouldn't have a station 130 years later.
It didn't go into the town... it was south of the river, which is what we have been trying to mentioned. The town wasn't founded by the railroad like many others. It is a bit more off the beaten path, but was a suitable place for a mill.
I'd call it 3 buildings far attached from the original town center. I'll give you an extra 1/3 of a block if that makes you happy!? But we are discussing 100s of millions of dollars in transit policy. That isn't a big deal. Roswell's downtown is awesome, but its not that big.
Watch the language... It isn't necessary
but if we're building transit *right by* this area, shouldn't we put a station within *reasonable* walking distance to the area? i'm not talking about going miles out of the way. roswell is a pretty signficant area and in terms of density, will be at least as dense as downtown decatur— which by your standards, wouldn't have gotten a station in 1979 because it would stray too far from dekalb avenue.
I'd argue no being that it isn't worth the extra cost and it isn't worth the far bigger opportunity cost of passing over the development demand potential along GA 400.. That area doesn't have many people and even with planned improvements it won't be that many more. The GA 400 corridor is far more accessible and has much more economic demand caused by the freeway. It is why there are more office parks in the area. It is also why there are more apartments and multifamily housing.
Furthermore, Decatur's population density is over 2.5x as much as the central Roswell area. It also has more jobs being the center of Dekalb County's Goverment. The historical town center is also larger being one of the oldest cities in the area. Like Lawrenceville it pre-dates Atlanta. The station is only about 1/3 of a mile from Howard Ave (not Dekalb Ave), and it was much cheaper to make it move over for a much shorter distance.
In comparison, Roswell is 2 miles away, but there is also a river and a small river/creek to contend with that would make it be off course for several miles... which there is no room for right of way. It is a pretty big different, both in terms of the size of the city center and the engineering required to make it happen. Howard Ave, is also a quiet street and there is no major freeway with larger arterial roads, so the area didn't have have opportunity costs to make it a multo-modal area.
first, you're exagerrating the numbers. it is dense— but at 11,000 ppsm. but have you checked the property? it's entirely car-centric and isn't even accessible to holcomb bridge road by foot. they're dated townhomes that house a lot of immigrants— i would imagine that the reason the density is so unusually high is that there's 6-8 people per unit because they can't afford to pay the price by themselves.
I'm not. It comes from the arcgis display of population density from the census bureau data. At the end of the day Roswell's town center is surrounded by large lot single family homes and a few new town home developments. Suburban apartment complexes when passed together are alot of homes on a small space... http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/vi...?useExisting=1 (add the layer 'USA Population Density' and zoom in, hover over each block group for info.)
if you look at similar, newer townhomes around windward parkway, the ppsm is nowhere near as high. it's around 4,000 ppsm. the site you're talking about is not some new urban walkable development— it's really old janky condos that people are crowding into because they're cheap. in contrast, roswell is planning high-density mixed-use development.
You're fighting a losing battle with this. The ppsm is higher, except that alot of the land is used for large use retail and offices ... which produced lots of jobs. This dilutes the ppsm. Some areas are lower, but some areas are in fact higher than 4,000ppsm. Additionally, it isn't important if you think they are cheap condos. It is where people are actually locating all over town in fairly dense redevelopments.
but let's go back to decatur for a moment. know what the population density is there? it's around 5000 ppsm. imagine what it was in 1980 when the line was constructed. now tell me that you don't think roswell will reach the population density that decatur has.
Ok... I don't think historic roswell will reach the population density that decatur has Like I said, Decatur's historic center is larger and has a heavier presence of jobs in the center, so it is a transit destination as well. It is truly a full live-work-play community. In 1980 the population was only about 900 people smaller, so it wasn't much lower. In fact, the population hit its peak (before the urban-phobia of the 70s-80s) in the 60s with 3,000 more people than it has today. So, the density use to actually be larger historically.
More importantly... look at N. Fulton. All of the jobs are locating off of Ga 400. They are high paying office jobs. There are high price... high density apartments starting to pop up. A robust large arterial road network to support more commuters and residents alike. There is more room to make a regional center near Northpoint that is already taken shape...even though it is auto-centric. It is the reason Alpharetta imports workers in the daytime.
I'd call it 3 buildings far attached from the original town center. I'll give you an extra 1/3 of a block if that makes you happy!? But we are discussing 100s of millions of dollars in transit policy. That isn't a big deal. Roswell's downtown is awesome, but its not that big.
actually that's the roswell town square— it's the original centre of roswell. i'm starting to think that you haven't actually been there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
I'd argue no being that it isn't worth the extra cost and it isn't worth the far bigger opportunity cost of passing over the development demand potential along GA 400.. That area doesn't have many people and even with planned improvements it won't be that many more. The GA 400 corridor is far more accessible and has much more economic demand caused by the freeway. It is why there are more office parks in the area. It is also why there are more apartments and multifamily housing.
the two options aren't mutually exclusive— you can have a station near downtown roswell AND still provide transit along the 400 corridor. draw a line or something— downtown alpharetta and downtown roswell are not that far out of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
Furthermore, Decatur's population density is over 2.5x as much as the central Roswell area. It also has more jobs being the center of Dekalb County's Goverment. The historical town center is also larger being one of the oldest cities in the area. Like Lawrenceville it pre-dates Atlanta. The station is only about 1/3 of a mile from Howard Ave (not Dekalb Ave), and it was much cheaper to make it move over for a much shorter distance.
In comparison, Roswell is 2 miles away, but there is also a river and a small river/creek to contend with that would make it be off course for several miles... which there is no room for right of way. It is a pretty big different, both in terms of the size of the city center and the engineering required to make it happen. Howard Ave, is also a quiet street and there is no major freeway with larger arterial roads, so the area didn't have have opportunity costs to make it a multo-modal area.
now you're talking practicalities. this is the biggest obstacle to building a station in downtown roswell and you have a very good point. however, it might be much much easier to locate a station that is still within reasonable walking distance from roswell, without having to dig under the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
I'm not. It comes from the arcgis display of population density from the census bureau data. At the end of the day Roswell's town center is surrounded by large lot single family homes and a few new town home developments. Suburban apartment complexes when passed together are alot of homes on a small space... http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/vi...?useExisting=1 (add the layer 'USA Population Density' and zoom in, hover over each block group for info.)
either your numbers or mine are wrong, but regardless it's irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
You're fighting a losing battle with this. The ppsm is higher, except that alot of the land is used for large use retail and offices ... which produced lots of jobs. This dilutes the ppsm. Some areas are lower, but some areas are in fact higher than 4,000ppsm. Additionally, it isn't important if you think they are cheap condos. It is where people are actually locating all over town in fairly dense redevelopments.
the redevelopment isn't dense. you've got 6-7 people per household in those old condos. that doesn't make the development dense. it's like the old joke about the clown car, just because 20 clowns can fit in it doesn't make it a big car. if the apartments were used in the manner they were originally designed for, the density would be much lower.
Quote:
Ok... I don't think historic roswell will reach the population density that decatur has Like I said, Decatur's historic center is larger and has a heavier presence of jobs in the center, so it is a transit destination as well. It is truly a full live-work-play community. In 1980 the population was only about 900 people smaller, so it wasn't much lower. In fact, the population hit its peak (before the urban-phobia of the 70s-80s) in the 60s with 3,000 more people than it has today. So, the density use to actually be larger historically.
i would shake on it and make a bet. i bet downtown roswell will someday be just as dense as downtown decatur is today.
Quote:
More importantly... look at N. Fulton. All of the jobs are locating off of Ga 400. They are high paying office jobs. There are high price... high density apartments starting to pop up. A robust large arterial road network to support more commuters and residents alike. There is more room to make a regional center near Northpoint that is already taken shape...even though it is auto-centric. It is the reason Alpharetta imports workers in the daytime.
once again you're doing this "either-or" thing. having a station for downtown roswell doesn't exclude having stations for any of those other places. is having a station at north point a higher priority than having one near downtown roswell? probably. but that doesn't exclude the other. for example, take a look at the current marta line. having a station at peachtree center is a very high priority— having one in downtown decatur is a lesser priority. but both got dug out and both made it on the line because both were considered important enough places to warrant a station. the downtown areas of roswell and alpharetta are just blossoming with denser development, and i believe they are important enough to warrant stations.
If I had time I would visit the meeting for 400 north. In 2011 I worked in Alpharetta and the commute is terrible.
My plan for 400N would be:
Heading North following 400
Northridge Station(Subway style like Sandy Springs Station)
Roswell (At Holcomb Bridge)
Mansell (In the ramps)
Northpointe (Next to the mall)
where my plan diverges from others
The line would leave 400 and head due north before the Haynes Bridge Exit
Haynes Bridge (Close to Haynes Bridge and Westside Pkwy Intersection)
The line would then follow Haynes Bridge and End at Haynes Bridge and Old Milton
Alpharetta (Level the Alpharetta Crossing Shopping Center)
I do think that there could be Trolly or BRT service on Between Roswell Station and Alpharetta Station following Holcomb Bridge to Nocross St. then up Alpharetta Hwy to Old Milton Rd Ending just pass GA 400.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,486 posts, read 14,999,411 times
Reputation: 7333
I would have to agree that extending any sort of mass transit into North Fulton along any other route than GA-400 just doesn't make any sense. For one, as was pointed out, the majority of the office complexes straddle GA-400 and the population of the area is centered on it. Secondly, and this is a real sticking point, let's say MARTA were to build an extension to the historic downtown's of Roswell and Alpharetta: They'd have to either tunnel all of the existing development between those areas and Sandy Springs or build an elevated line through the miles of cul-de-sac neighborhoods. Yeah, that ain't happening. Especially considering there is plenty of space on either side of GA-400 for transit.
These Marta expansion talks become very frustrating. THey have been going on since the 90's and nothing ever happens. How many talks and meetings have you heard over the years for 400N extension that would make perfect sense and there would be ridership to justify it, but the NIMBY's jump in, the environmentalist jump in about the river, and the idiots about it will bring major crime jump in and the idea of expansion never get further than talks or a meeting, with peoples hopes up for anything ever happening.
I think i heard on AM 750 3-4 yrs ago that MARTA said that would probably get a rail up to Windward parkway, but it would be around 2025 when it all gets done. These same debates were made for a line to Northlake in the 90's, currently to the CDC area, a line for I20 for the east side riders, or extending the west line out to atleast Fulton industrial. If the Beltine on existing infastructure that just needs to be spruced up cant be done with out a giant fuss, a new expansion of heavy rail will be way in the future..
At this point is might just be better to do like Los Angeles and run a BRT that gets its own lane and runs very frequently and where a lane cant be built to use use the emergency lane like on GA400 now during rush hours.
Sadly, we will probably still be having this discussion in 2020 with hopes of that 1rst new Marta station to be built somewhere.
These Marta expansion talks become very frustrating. THey have been going on since the 90's and nothing ever happens. How many talks and meetings have you heard over the years for 400N extension that would make perfect sense and there would be ridership to justify it, but the NIMBY's jump in, the environmentalist jump in about the river, and the idiots about it will bring major crime jump in and the idea of expansion never get further than talks or a meeting, with peoples hopes up for anything ever happening.
I think i heard on AM 750 3-4 yrs ago that MARTA said that would probably get a rail up to Windward parkway, but it would be around 2025 when it all gets done. These same debates were made for a line to Northlake in the 90's, currently to the CDC area, a line for I20 for the east side riders, or extending the west line out to atleast Fulton industrial. If the Beltine on existing infastructure that just needs to be spruced up cant be done with out a giant fuss, a new expansion of heavy rail will be way in the future..
At this point is might just be better to do like Los Angeles and run a BRT that gets its own lane and runs very frequently and where a lane cant be built to use use the emergency lane like on GA400 now during rush hours.
Sadly, we will probably still be having this discussion in 2020 with hopes of that 1rst new Marta station to be built somewhere.
Hopefully I will be out of here by then. A city where they actually care about their transit. NYC, SF, Chicago.
actually that's the roswell town square— it's the original centre of roswell. i'm starting to think that you haven't actually been there.
It isn't that big. Most of it is a suburban style road, except for a few isoltated stretches. and yes... we started off talking about the historic core, so I'm mostly talking about the old historic commercial center.
the two options aren't mutually exclusive— you can have a station near downtown roswell AND still provide transit along the 400 corridor. draw a line or something— downtown alpharetta and downtown roswell are not that far out of the way.
Already discussed, but 2 miles out of the way and you're not thinking about the future planning of the GA 400 corridor, the areas east or Ga 400 or Johns Creek.
now you're talking practicalities. this is the biggest obstacle to building a station in downtown roswell and you have a very good point. however, it might be much much easier to locate a station that is still within reasonable walking distance from roswell, without having to dig under the city.
There really isn't thought. No corridors of right of way exist and if you moved it in between you would add two additional river crossings.
either your numbers or mine are wrong, but regardless it's irrelevant.
My numbers are correct. I used a layer in ArcGIS that provides more detail at the census block group just as I stated. A technical detail, but an important one!
Nonetheless, even with Census tracts used instead the same trend can be seen. the area around downtown Roswell is only 1,400-2,600 ppsm across 4 census tracts. The apartment census tract is over 11,000 ppsm and includes areas that aren't apartments.
the redevelopment isn't dense. you've got 6-7 people per household in those old condos. that doesn't make the development dense. it's like the old joke about the clown car, just because 20 clowns can fit in it doesn't make it a big car. if the apartments were used in the manner they were originally designed for, the density would be much lower.
Yet the data shows it to be far denser than single family homes in downtown Roswell. I get it you love your town, but that doesn't make responsible transit planning.
i would shake on it and make a bet. i bet downtown roswell will someday be just as dense as downtown decatur is today.
Well that is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't offer real empirical evidence to make the decision to move hundreds of millions of dollars, which are limited in Atlanta, of transit investment
once again you're doing this "either-or" thing. having a station for downtown roswell doesn't exclude having stations for any of those other places. is having a station at north point a higher priority than having one near downtown roswell? probably. but that doesn't exclude the other. for example, take a look at the current marta line. having a station at peachtree center is a very high priority— having one in downtown decatur is a lesser priority. but both got dug out and both made it on the line because both were considered important enough places to warrant a station. the downtown areas of roswell and alpharetta are just blossoming with denser development, and i believe they are important enough to warrant stations.
I'm sorry, but you're fighting a losing battle. Spend some more years driving into Urban Planning a bit more and look at all the current policy choices being made for the GA 400 corridor and then Roswell. GA 400 has far more infrastructure, far more room for growth, far more jobs, and great highway and arterial road access. They aren't important enough to overcome that and planners are aware of that. You're welcome to stick your head in the sand all you want
I think the stations should generally be master-planned as new mixed-use areas along GA 400. Forget the historic downtowns.
Make mini-Lindberghs at each of the new GA-400 stations, except heavier on the office component and lighter on retail/residential.
Also, come up with a good master plan to redevelop North Springs Station into a major office development--I'm talking large skyscrapers. If you extend MARTA North up 400, North Springs will be underutilized and have tons of extra parking capacity. We need offices to be practically on top of MARTA stations.
... but the NIMBY's jump in, the environmentalist jump in about the river, and the idiots about it will bring major crime jump in and the idea of expansion never get further than talks or a meeting, with peoples hopes up for anything ever happening.
Easy to say when you don't live in Sandy Springs near the river or use the river for hiking, biking, or general recreation - which many people do. In fact there are neighborhoods of very nice homes right near the Northridge exit, and their property value would drop like a rock.
Easy to say when you don't live in Sandy Springs near the river or use the river for hiking, biking, or general recreation - which many people do. In fact there are neighborhoods of very nice homes right near the Northridge exit, and their property value would drop like a rock.
Drop? They should increase due to easier access to transit. The Rail line will be right next to the freeway, if the people can tolerate a freeway, they can surely tolerate a rail system. If anything, the rail system's viaduct would act as a partial noise barrier either removing the need for a big, ugly metal wall, or will increase the efficacy of the traditional noise barriers.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Like I said, Decatur's historic center is larger and has a heavier presence of jobs in the center, so it is a transit destination as well. It is truly a full live-work-play community. In 1980 the population was only about 900 people smaller, so it wasn't much lower. In fact, the population hit its peak (before the urban-phobia of the 70s-80s) in the 60s with 3,000 more people than it has today. So, the density use to actually be larger historically.
