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I like it , the question is whether the Regional Rail will be...
A) Through Running like Philadelphia , Berlin or Paris
B) Electrified or Use DMU's like the Northeastern Systems
C) Lease part of the ROW and build 2 exclusive tracks for usage like Salt Lake City has done
D) Run Frequently like every 10 mins during rush hour and every 30-45mins off peak
With the demographics switch out here, I think you would be wrong.
I highly doubt it yet. Maybe soon, but not right now.
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Originally Posted by PKCorey
With all the Xpress bus options on this side of town, I don't see the point of driving to Indian Creek at this stage.
Because the XPress system is useless for anyone that doesn't have a guaranteed schedule, or for commuting during midday or doing anything else but working a very limited number of hours in a handful of destinations. Driving to Indian Creek offers the flexibility that the XPress system can't.
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey
I like it , the question is whether the Regional Rail will be...
A) Through Running like Philadelphia , Berlin or Paris
B) Electrified or Use DMU's like the Northeastern Systems
C) Lease part of the ROW and build 2 exclusive tracks for usage like Salt Lake City has done
D) Run Frequently like every 10 mins during rush hour and every 30-45mins off peak
Through running is almost guaranteed as there is very little space to store trains in Atlanta.
Electrification or DMUs are very unlikely. Georgia isn't known for exploring the cutting edge in technology for its public infrastructure.
Leasing part of the ROW is only possible in a few places, it'd be better to simply offer to double track all the existing tracks where the commuter rail would run and pay all those costs.
That frequency might could only be supported along the I-75 and I-85 North corridors, but even then, 20 minute headways are more reasonable, with 30 minute headways being the norm for other corridors with 1-2 hr off-peak headways.
I highly doubt it yet. Maybe soon, but not right now.
Because the XPress system is useless for anyone that doesn't have a guaranteed schedule, or for commuting during midday or doing anything else but working a very limited number of hours in a handful of destinations. Driving to Indian Creek offers the flexibility that the XPress system can't.
I think, if it were to come up to vote in 2-4 years, it would pass out here especially if we get some decent connections to downtown or Perimeter.
That is true but its still the best option for the current time being, if you work downtown or Perimeter during normal hours.
I highly doubt it yet. Maybe soon, but not right now.
Because the XPress system is useless for anyone that doesn't have a guaranteed schedule, or for commuting during midday or doing anything else but working a very limited number of hours in a handful of destinations. Driving to Indian Creek offers the flexibility that the XPress system can't.
Through running is almost guaranteed as there is very little space to store trains in Atlanta.
Electrification or DMUs are very unlikely. Georgia isn't known for exploring the cutting edge in technology for its public infrastructure.
Leasing part of the ROW is only possible in a few places, it'd be better to simply offer to double track all the existing tracks where the commuter rail would run and pay all those costs.
That frequency might could only be supported along the I-75 and I-85 North corridors, but even then, 20 minute headways are more reasonable, with 30 minute headways being the norm for other corridors with 1-2 hr off-peak headways.
For commuter rail?
I don't think that is what is happening and it isn't what the GDOT has studied in the past.
There were would be train storage. It would only be during peak commuter hours and mostly one way.
They will not be adding large amounts of extra tracks as much as upgrades. This was from the original state rail commuter rail studies prior to Concept 3. There are alot of subtle things that went into the planning of Concept 3 that are hard to tell with just looking at it on a concept map.
Atlanta has heavily used freight corridors (it is quite literally the the Southern freight rail hub, like Chicago is to the midwest), so parts of our city can't even use commuter rail (Cobb County/Northwest being the biggest problem location)
If we had to build all new tracks, it would be better just to make grade separated light rail from the get go, which was the plan for Cobb and corridors w/o freight rail (N. Fulton)
Gwinnett was going to get LRT service to create the all day two-way service, as well as connect perimeter, Cobb and N. Fulton.
but the drawback of freight tracks is no all day service, low frequency and 2 way service is mostly thrown out the window.
These are all heavily used freight corridors, unlike what can be found in other non-hub cities that have extra rails from a bygone era.
We have alot of obstacles to overcome to get past just to get the Northern Running commuter rail lines as-is (Athens, Gainesville, and Bremen).
We'll have a little more lee-way for intercity operations for Atlanta-Griffin-Macon, because we are upgrading a secondary rail track, not the mainline. We will actually be expanding freight capacity for Norfolk Southern, while making a passenger rail on existing tracks.
The Xpress/county express buses do have mid-day service and some reverse commute service in the busier corridors, such as Gwinnett. So, that is a possibility if we put the investment there.
There were a few comments made about N. Fulton. There is a pro and Con to light rail. The major pro for lightrail was the ability to connect N. Fulton to Cobb and Gwinnett better w/o a transfer. We'd have more lee way to create different types of services and the lightrail could add more circulation within the Perimeter Center area that can't easily reach an existing MARTA station.
It is worth considering, so long as we don't built it on the cheap and we keep it almost completely grade separated and high speed on long corridors.
I don't think that is what is happening and it isn't what the GDOT has studied in the past.
There were would be train storage. It would only be during peak commuter hours and mostly one way.
They will not be adding large amounts of extra tracks as much as upgrades. This was from the original state rail commuter rail studies prior to Concept 3. There are alot of subtle things that went into the planning of Concept 3 that are hard to tell with just looking at it on a concept map.
I don't care what the GDOT has studied in the past. A handful of token trains peak-direction-only is NOT a real commuter rail system. That's nothing more than a cutsey choo choo train to make some politicians look good on some local newspaper and to their federal cronies.
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Atlanta has heavily used freight corridors (it is quite literally the the Southern freight rail hub, like Chicago is to the midwest), so parts of our city can't even use commuter rail (Cobb County/Northwest being the biggest problem location)
If we had to build all new tracks, it would be better just to make grade separated light rail from the get go, which was the plan for Cobb and corridors w/o freight rail (N. Fulton)
The right of way for double tracking most of the required corridors already exists. Having to build an entirely new right of way for two entirely new tracks drives the cost up big time. It's necessary for places with no railroad right of way to add on to like GA-400 corridor and I-20 East, but it'd cost far less to upgrade the existing rights of way for the freight railroads and run trains on that.
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Gwinnett was going to get LRT service to create the all day two-way service, as well as connect perimeter, Cobb and N. Fulton.
but the drawback of freight tracks is no all day service, low frequency and 2 way service is mostly thrown out the window.
The Chicago "racetrack" from Chicago to Aurora, IL operates on three main tracks and has all kinds of peak, midday, late evening, and express service while co-existing with a very busy freight route and several Amtrak trains.
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These are all heavily used freight corridors, unlike what can be found in other non-hub cities that have extra rails from a bygone era.
We have alot of obstacles to overcome to get past just to get the Northern Running commuter rail lines as-is (Athens, Gainesville, and Bremen).
We'll have a little more lee-way for intercity operations for Atlanta-Griffin-Macon, because we are upgrading a secondary rail track, not the mainline. We will actually be expanding freight capacity for Norfolk Southern, while making a passenger rail on existing tracks.
Another bad decision by the GDOT (is anyone even surprised at this point?). It runs on some lightly-used, twisty, curvy route that serves the lesser population centers compared to the McDonough-Jackson route which would provide a real alternative to I-75. Does the Griffin route deserve commuter rail service? Absolutely, but not as the first line, nor as the main intercity thoroughfare.
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The Xpress/county express buses do have mid-day service and some reverse commute service in the busier corridors, such as Gwinnett. So, that is a possibility if we put the investment there.
What? One token route during the midday? I agree that expansion of the XPress service would be a good way to ease people into the idea of transit before spending a lot on something like a real commuter rail system, but you can't seriously say that it adequately serves the region's needs in its current state.
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There were a few comments made about N. Fulton. There is a pro and Con to light rail. The major pro for lightrail was the ability to connect N. Fulton to Cobb and Gwinnett better w/o a transfer. We'd have more lee way to create different types of services and the lightrail could add more circulation within the Perimeter Center area that can't easily reach an existing MARTA station.
It is worth considering, so long as we don't built it on the cheap and we keep it almost completely grade separated and high speed on long corridors.
While I agree that inter-suburb connectivity is a good goal, and would be nice later, the focus should be on the more major corridors. GA-400 doesn't backup south into Atlanta because everyone's going to the other same-side suburbs.
Matt, this is something we have discussed to death on these forums for years in the past.
The problem is the benefit of commuter rail almost rests soley on using existing track. It is why we can often cite such a lower costs.
It isn't about right of way.
Once we go to the extent of building new, the cost-benefit ratio balance shifts into doing something else... like LRT... as-is reflected in Concept 3.
I do care about studies actually... there is a reason we have them, so we understand the cost-benefit and function of something. That is how I am able to tell you what concept 3 includes.
But... it is also how we understand the pros and cons of these technologies and decide how to implement them (hince the reason Gwinnett has 2 commuter lines, but is still recommended a core LRT line)
Matt, I'm a big transit advocate, but it isn't lost on me that Atlanta is fairly spread out. We have to adjust implementation strategies for the right cost-benefit scenario.
The Xpress bus and commuter services works well, because it mainly operates when a road or highway corridor is most congested. It isn't meant to be a one-stop shop for all. It is meant to alleviate peak moments of congestion...when other means of transportation are already available throughout the day (driving a car)
Many major cities use one way commuter rail, one way express buses as a piece of their transit puzzle.
It allows us to use freight rails, where as frequent 2-way service does not.
unfortunately they downgraded several lines to light rail, and the line to cobb is completely gone, replaced with 'arterial bus service' which is as good as nothing.
rather than having some balls and sticking to the plan, it looks like they just went with the whims of what the various organisations around atlanta think should happen.
Oh... and one last thing... if you follow GDOT politics closely and understood the current problems with implementing commuter rail on freight rails there are many reasons griffin is the first on the map.
The GDOT didn't drop the ball on that at all. Those tracks are both norfolk Southern tracks. The Mcdonough route is the major mainline and is a critical freight rail artery that is congested.
The Griffin rail only has some through freight at low speeds and freight delivery. The capacity exists. The plan is to upgrade the tracks (updates crossings and extreme curves), so trains can operate at or close to full speed.
This will have plenty of capacity for commuter and intercity rail within the state at a fairly low cost. It will also expand freight capacity and it is easy to negotiate and work with Norfolk Southern.
The other track isn't. It is a congested, economically important freight mainline and presesnts more costly barriers for us to overcome to use starting off our passenger service.
The state has done an exceptional job studying these details.... just not funding anything...
Wow How Nice if all of this actually existed Today....Instead of Drooling over plans some 40Plus Years from now Smh...The Worlds Greatest Cities (Chicago,London,New York,Paris) Foresaw the need for great Transit options...Atlanta Had Great railroads way back when but Abandoned em for Roads...I Just Wish We Cud Seriously get some Commuter Rail Going Here Becuase MARTA expansion is Costly and timely (Still sorely Needed tho!) So it seems easier to get the Commuter trains runnin. Those Express Buses Sure prove the need for the upgrade to Rail service...I Must say I Love the Connectivity of all the lines...All of this would provide A seemless way around this Ever Growing Metro...Heck If this were already in place Id Still be living In Covington....But All of this is dreams on paper and at least 50 years from reality....Ill Stay In New York...
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