$370 million mini-city Halcyon pitched in Forsyth County (Atlanta, Roswell: 2014, Home Depot)

[ATLTJL]

I get what you are saying, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't see a difference between developing downtown Cumming and building this fake city....especially since it will probably be even BIGGER than downtown Cumming. And more walkable.

I mean, I'm not an idiot, I obviously see the difference between a historic downtown and a master planned development. But that's a preference, not an actual urban planning meaningful difference. Both are high density developments that must be driven to, but are walkable once you are inside.

What I'm saying is I don't think we should let our preferences on whether something has to be historic and charming or new and modern dictate how we build. Density is density is density, and you're either for it or you're against it.

If the people of Forsyth want a faux-urban experience, who is anyone to tell them otherwise? It's not sprawl.

[jsvh]

It's better than just another cul de sac subdivision.

Who knows, in 15 years we could be talking about Forsyth joining MARTA and a station going here.

[primaltech]

Me, I'm telling them otherwise. Others here are, too.

It would be one thing if Atlanta was New York City, with 8.5 million people inside the city limits. Then you can sort of justify a lot of suburbs that spread out for miles and miles, containing an additional few more million people. Gradually becoming less and less dense. That's pretty natural.

But it's not even a close comparison. Atlanta still has less than a half million in population (and is not even dense itself), and yet its suburbs sprawl out for 50 miles in all directions, and contain 5 or 6 million people, living in cookie cutter subdivisions upon subdivisions, and driving themselves to work in their car, on extremely clogged highways. That's F'ing ridiculous. That's a ridiculous way to live, and it's one reason why we have a lower quality of life and well-being than other states.

Here is a list of things that are good for this metro right now:

-Atlanta filling in more and increasing its own density, and all things ITP urbanism. (Better grid streets, bike lanes, etc.)
-Transit becoming a lot more robust, in the city and suburbs. Connecting residential counties to job centers.
-OTP cities doing the same thing as Atlanta needs to do- build up their own core downtowns in an urban, walkable way.
-Office buildings with high paying jobs in the suburbs, so that more people out there can live near their work.
-Other nodes of density/urbanism that may not be connected to a downtown- but only IF they are transit oriented.

Stuff that's not good:

-Here, get in your car and drive in traffic and park in this parking deck, so that you can walk around in this little island.
-Turning Georgia into a state of suburbs. Cutting down our forest (which makes oxygen) just to build even more sprawl.
-The isolated mindset that comes with people living in sheltered generic suburbs, without actually ever going to the city.

[Caleb Longstreet]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Yeah, this is lame, drive-to "urbanism" at its worst. At least with Avalon, the eventual plan is to connect it with historic downtown Alpharetta via dense developments, in theory forming one large, pedestrian-friendly area at the center of town. Also it will eventually be MARTA rail-connected.

Whereas something like this, is more or less the equivalent of a 90's shopping mall, except including residential, and outdoors instead of under a roof.

Forsyth County should concentrate all of their newfound desire for walkability and urbanism and community, into downtown Cumming. Make it an actual notable city, with rows of densely packed houses and restaurants and shops on the corners.

Do you have any idea of what "densely packed houses and of course, more restaurants" do to traffic? It's not like these areas improve much of the roads first. No, they build THEN add and improve roads making it a quagmire. Old Milton is already starting to see the impact with Avalon and the new pending tech college on the way....toss in endless and mindless retail and voila, a traffic disaster similar to Gwinnett mall....yech. How about smart development where they plow all the ranch homes down first and then have all this alleged treasured dense housing....they may be dense alright but, don't think for a minute they are giving up the two plus cars in the garage. Great, more cars per square mile. Should be a hoot.

[primaltech]

I can't see Forsyth ever joining MARTA, at least not until the next few generations are long dead. They think public transportation (and the taxes to fund it) = socialism. (And they think socialism = bad, but that's for another forum.) They hesitate to even consider themselves a part of metro Atlanta- they are notably not a member of the 10-county Atlanta Regional Commission.

Even if they did want to join, that's too far from Atlanta for urban-style heavy rail. It would just be dragging whatever semblance of a center point of the city there even is, even further northward. Even more stretched out. Before we even consider it, first there needs to be heavy rail to south Fulton, and a lot more development down that way.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet

Do you have any idea of what "densely packed houses and of course, more restaurants" do to traffic? It's not like these areas improve much of the roads first. No, they build THEN add and improve roads making it a quagmire. Old Milton is already starting to see the impact with AvLon and the new pending tech college in the way....toss in endless and mindless retail and voila, a traffic disaster similar to Gwinnett mall....yech. How about smart development where they plow all the ranch homes down first and then have all this alleged treasured dense housing....they may be dense alright but, don't think for a minute they are giving up the two plus cars in the garage. Great, more cars per square mile. Should be a hoot.

But who cares how bad the traffic is, if it's completely optional to sit in it? That is what density, and transit, and true urbanism provides you- an ability to not have to drive to live your life. Where you can live, work, and play, with minimal need to drive.

Whereas, the roads leading to this walkable island paradise development in Forsyth, are going to have a lot of miserable traffic, like Mall of Georgia does. And/or they're going to be widened super-roads to the point where your community ends up as a big massive sea of cars, much like Cobb Parkway, and people are rightfully scared to try to walk or bike around the area, even if they could.

[sedimenjerry]

Just my periodic reminder that not everyone wants to live in midtown or an east Atlantan neighborhood (or anyplace that dense).

If Forsyth County is really that far out there, then why does it matter what they do? The traffic brought on by this development will not affect the vast majority of metro Atlanta, particularly the intown people who despise this stuff the most. It's not a major job center of the metro area so it's not like commutes will be fried anymore than they already are. The people complaining about this are all people who will never sit in the traffic in the first place.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by sedimenjerry

Just my periodic reminder that not everyone wants to live in midtown or an east Atlantan neighborhood (or anyplace that dense).

If Forsyth County is really that far out there, then why does it matter what they do? The traffic brought on by this development will not affect the vast majority of metro Atlanta, particularly the intown people who despise this stuff the most. It's not a major job center of the metro area so it's not like commutes will be fried anymore than they already are. The people complaining about this are all people who will never sit in the traffic in the first place.

It will affect traffic on 400 at McFarland, which then filters down the corridor to Alpharetta and Roswell all the way to I-285. The county doesn't operate in a vacuum.

[ATLTJL]

EXACTLY!

All of these people are simply sitting here trying to force their way of life onto others, despite the fact that these people's decisions don't affect them in the least. Why? Simply because they hate the fact that Forsyth county exists at all?

I just don't get it.

But it's completely irrelevant. The opinions of this board will have precisely zero impact on whether something like this happens, so it's just waxing poetic and throwing a bunch of opinions out there.

Forsyth is gonna do what it wants, and if you don't like it, you don't have to go there. Oh wait, you're already not going there, so why does it matter? The people of Forsyth aren't going to just sit back and watch Atlanta develop and not do any of their own development. If they want to work on their historic downtown, fine, I'm sure they will...but that isn't going to give them the AMC 18 with stadium seating and Whole Foods that I best this thing will. And who is anyone here to tell them that they shouldn't have those things?

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

EXACTLY!

All of these people are simply sitting here trying to force their way of life onto others, despite the fact that these people's decisions don't affect them in the least. Why? Simply because they hate the fact that Forsyth county exists at all?

I just don't get it.

But it's completely irrelevant. The opinions of this board will have precisely zero impact on whether something like this happens, so it's just waxing poetic and throwing a bunch of opinions out there.

Forsyth is gonna do what it wants, and if you don't like it, you don't have to go there. Oh wait, you're already not going there, so why does it matter? The people of Forsyth aren't going to just sit back and watch Atlanta develop and not do any of their own development. If they want to work on their historic downtown, fine, I'm sure they will...but that isn't going to give them the AMC 18 with stadium seating and Whole Foods that I best this thing will. And who is anyone here to tell them that they shouldn't have those things?

Metro Atlanta's planning mindset in a nutshell.