Stats that show the Atlanta Streetcar was a complete and utter failure of epic proportion (Cleveland: station, health)

[primaltech]

It's a tourist attraction, not serious transit. That's not a defense of the spending on it, but that's apparently what it is, because yeah, it's useless.

One thing I really don't like, is how they had to add butt ugly overhead power wires to an area that has underground wiring. Downtown was prettier to look at before those streetcar poles and cables.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I have to go with Mike on the whole testing it out angle. Streetcars are nothing new, plenty of other cities have them, Atlanta is nothing special.

But I'll point out that the maximum speed isn't 6mph, that's the average speed, which long ago I calculated to be higher than the buses over the same route. The maximum speed is 35mph.

Just because it has been implemented elsewhere, and is a proven technology, doesn't mean that it does not require local testing before moving forward into a larger system.

That's, still, the biggest aspect of why this loop isn't a waste of money. It is Phase 0, of a huge undertaking of 50 miles worth of light rail and streetcar. It is the launchpad, on which we test the technology, specific designs, and installation there of, and from which we expand.

It is all required to move forward with a system.

We would still need to test the trains, the power systems, the platform and station designs, the ticketing, et. al. This loop, the only one that that made sense to the feds at the time, and which would have likely been in the plan regardless, offered that opportunity.

Now, that we have done the tests, that we have the experience from operating it, and that we've learned from our mistakes, we can properly move forward from this Phase 0 into a real system.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by primaltech

It's a tourist attraction, not serious transit. That's not a defense of the spending on it, but that's apparently what it is, because yeah, it's useless.

Only if we don't expand it.

One thing I really don't like, is how they had to add butt ugly overhead power wires to an area that has underground wiring. Downtown was prettier to look at before those streetcar poles and cables.

I, personally, like the overhead wires, but that's all personal aesthetic preference.

[primaltech]

If there were streetcar lines running on every primary street of the city, every 10 minutes or less, 24/7/365 days, and city dwellers could actually rely on it as their primary getting around daily transportation (much like the NYC subway)...

Then, it would actually be worth it. And useful. And popular. And worth whatever the cost. Because it would be an actually comprehensive, reliable system, that goes everywhere you need to go. And nitpicks like the average speed of the vehicles wouldn't matter all that much. Riding it would be ingrained into the local cultural fabric. People would just ride it. Many would not own a car.

Residents of Home park, for example, should be able to hop on a 14th St streetcar, that takes them to their jobs over in Midtown. Even if it's only a mile and it's about as fast as walking. Not everyone feels like walking every day, especially in heat or cold. They'd ride the streetcar if it was convenient and reliable and frequent enough. And then the experience of it would improve, with less weird people and homeless people on their, more just the regular folks and members of their neighborhood and community, people you might see and bump into and talk to everyday, like a real community.

The streetcar should be on 17th, 14th, 10th, 5th, North Ave, Ponce, Northside Dr, Howell Mill, Spring, West Peachtree, Peachtree, Juniper, Piedmont, Highland, Monroe, etc etc.

We need to either have zero transit at all and save the money, or invest in truly great, amazing transit. Not these incomplete, substandard compromises the city and metro are always left with at the end of the day, that people pay millions of dollars in taxes for. When systems are done half-ass or quarter-ass or etc, that's where the waste is.

Also then when you have that comprehensive system in place that people across most of the city can actually legit use on a daily basis, then you can reduce parking spots and generally move at least a few inches away from car-driving dominated transportation culture in the city.

But that ain't gonna happen with a few billion. Atlanta should raise $50 billion for this stuff, for game changing transit, not 2 or 3 billion for afterthought transit, that still basically few people are going to ride. The Beltline might get a few choice/pleasure riders on the weekends or whatever, but there should be a lot more lines in the city plan.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

It's a tourist attraction, not serious transit. That's not a defense of the spending on it, but that's apparently what it is, because yeah, it's useless.

One thing I really don't like, is how they had to add butt ugly overhead power wires to an area that has underground wiring. Downtown was prettier to look at before those streetcar poles and cables.

Prettier, we are now moving to this argument? It's a single overhead line with green painted poles and where old overhead eye hooks existed in buildings, those got used again.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

If there were streetcar lines running on every primary street of the city, every 10 minutes or less, 24/7/365 days, and city dwellers could actually rely on it as their primary getting around daily transportation (much like the NYC subway)...

Then, it would actually be worth it. And useful. And popular. And worth whatever the cost. Because it would be an actually comprehensive, reliable system, that goes everywhere you need to go. And nitpicks like the average speed of the vehicles wouldn't matter all that much. Riding it would be ingrained into the local cultural fabric. People would just ride it. Many would not own a car.

Residents of Home park, for example, should be able to hop on a 14th St streetcar, that takes them to their jobs over in Midtown. Even if it's only a mile and it's about as fast as walking. Not everyone feels like walking every day, especially in heat or cold. They'd ride the streetcar if it was convenient and reliable and frequent enough. And then the experience of it would improve, with less weird people and homeless people on their, more just the regular folks and members of their neighborhood and community, people you might see and bump into and talk to everyday, like a real community.

The streetcar should be on 17th, 14th, 10th, 5th, North Ave, Ponce, Northside Dr, Howell Mill, Spring, West Peachtree, Peachtree, Juniper, Piedmont, Highland, Monroe, etc etc.

We need to either have zero transit at all and save the money, or invest in truly great, amazing transit. Not these incomplete, substandard compromises the city and metro are always left with at the end of the day, that people pay millions of dollars in taxes for. When systems are done half-ass or quarter-ass or etc, that's where the waste is.

Also then when you have that comprehensive system in place that people across most of the city can actually legit use on a daily basis, then you can reduce parking spots and generally move at least a few inches away from car-driving dominated transportation culture in the city.

But that ain't gonna happen with a few billion. Atlanta should raise $50 billion for this stuff, for game changing transit, not 2 or 3 billion for afterthought transit, that still basically few people are going to ride. The Beltline might get a few choice/pleasure riders on the weekends or whatever, but there should be a lot more lines in the city plan.

We'll just wait for Trump to write us a check.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by cqholt

We'll just wait for Trump to write us a check.

[UScityUrbanCores]

I don't particularly like Trolley lines and street-level Trams. Philly has a highly used system and Toronto. Houston h's one line through its downtown and outward.

I see that Atlanta being a car oriented city for so long and being in a era of lower-priced gas. It was timing in part and perhaps neighborhoods the lines were chose to run. Young Professionals in gentrified areas. Would probably have accepted it more. I Also dislike the overhead wires as others noted. But hopefully it will gain more interest. Gentrification could follow the lines too?

I would rather see Atlanta had done a elevated tram line. Or if feasible? A line was run in the middle of a expressway. I've seen this in Chicago. Extended lines of elevated trains were run in a expressways. One line extended to its airport this way. Park n Ride terminals with parking utilized to. Where driving partway to the terminal can be done. Especially from distant neighborhoods and suburbs.

I do think sunbelt cities car oriented for decades of growth. Will find it easy to have mass transit accepted as long as fuel remains low. Some see it as a Older Northern city necessity and a trolley as Old fashioned for a city striving to be more modern.

Also possibility or using Amtrak like trains on existing track, even to the suburbs should be looked into. they have less of a old fashioned stigma providing more comfort. It works well for Northern cities bringing in suburbanites to downtowns.

[primaltech]

It comes down to money. Ideally, all transit would be underground, cruising at full speed in its own right of way all the time.

Next best thing is elevated above the surface.

Then after that, at the surface but with a dedicated right of way.

Then the lowest/worst grade of transit has to sit in traffic and wait at red lights, etc. Delays galore.

The sweet spot in terms of impact per cost, is that third option. On the surface, therefore requiring minimal expensive construction, but also not having to operate in mixed traffic. But, it's politically difficult to take right of way from cars.

[arjay57]

For the cost of a 2.5 mile streetcar line with 4 creepy-crawly cars and minimal ridership we could have put 200 new, sleek, state of the art CNG buses on the streets of the city of Atlanta.

Think about it. They could go anywhere in the city and are not limited by tracks and overhead wires.

And don't tell me they'd be bunched up any worse than the durn streetcar on Peachtree street.