Atlanta’s housing crisis: stop making it worse with bad arguments against growth (Washington: leasing, cost)

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

And then what happens when you're too 'broken down' to drive safely? I say this as someone who had a grandfather pass away not too long ago, but there was a time when he really didn't need to be driving at all. He could walk alright, but he shouldn't have been driving in Atlanta's traffic. Without the car, he was trapped in his comparatively low density neighborhood, away from all the things he needed to do.

Had he lived somewhere more dense, he wouldn't have been driving as much, putting himself and others at risk.

Besides, if the transit was well implemented, as density supports, you wouldn't need to wait long, nor would you need to stand, nor would you need to wait in the sun. A bus shelter is covered, has a bench, and is generally served by frequent buses. Also, you could take daily trips to the nearby grocer by walking or taking transit, and pick up only what you needed that day, as many elderly do now as an excuse to get out of the door.

With higher density, there would be places to visit, more reasons to get out of the home, and there'd likely be less elderly depression overall.

I'll keep an open mind but it doesn't sound like a very enticing future. I have been through times when I was unable to drive due to physical impairment and trying to get around on public transit is extremely challenging. You are a great transit advocate, fourthwarden, but frankly I don't think you'd like it either.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Speaking as one old broken down geezer, I can tell you I have little interest in hiking up to the bus stop and standing around in the boiling sun. Nor is there any appeal to the idea of schlepping it home from the train station with bags of groceries 3 or 4 times a week.

Give me an electric car any day. And if that is hurting the effectiveness of transit then transit be danged.

There, I've said it, so go ahead and clobber me.

Then you shop at a retailer that provides free parking and passes the costs onto you.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

And why not? Plenty of places manage it just fine. They just don't do it with all cars, because that's not how density works.

And you're assuming that all the people who live in those small homes with no yards want it that way. Not just that they live like that because it's just what's available.

Oh, and of course it wouldn't be "density everywhere". Just as much as can be supported by the demand at the minimum possible price point. Right now we've got this huge pent up need for urban housing, but only the higher-priced stuff is really getting built at any extensive scale, but there's still a huge discrepancy between what people want, and what's being supplied.

We can meet far more of the demand by opening up the opportunities to profit off development at lower price points by removing barriers. The better we do with that, and the more housing that gets built, and at lower prices. That means more affordable housing, and more demand met.

And why not? Because it's wholly unnecessary to have that sort of density everywhere, especially in neighborhoods in which the neighborhood does not want that sort of thing. Atlanta has plenty of space and open land in which to provide dense housing without requiring existing quiet neighborhoods to accept 20 new houses being plopped onto a single lot. Many people choose Atlanta specifically because it's not an urban concrete jungle like NYC. I do not want to live in a place like NYC. I do not like NYC. If I wanted to live like that, I would. I don't. I chose Atlanta because it's not that.

I mean, seriously...the entirety of Manhattan fits in a space just slightly bigger than downtown and midtown. Why should residents of the Chastain Park area be required to accept a high-density development on their street? Keep it to the core and on main roads for now.

In all honesty, I think some of you will not be happy until the entire city is torn down and rebuilt to your specifications.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Then you shop at a retailer that provides free parking and passes the costs onto you.

Do you think it costs more to shop at a grocery store with a parking lot than one without parking?

[wasel]

Originally Posted by jsvh

It is not as much as what I am personally trying to build but what I see others trying. I go to regular neighborhood and NPU meetings. .

Aren't you putting an accessory dwelling unit on your property?

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I mean, seriously...the entirety of Manhattan fits in a space just slightly bigger than downtown and midtown.

Not even close. Manhattan is 23 square miles while a combined Midtown and Downtown is about 3.8 sq. miles.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Why can't you build that in Ormewood Park? Seems like you could build that in most of the city, except for maybe R-5 and certain commercial areas.

Re your pictures, we've got tons of areas like those shown in your third photo, jsvh. Here's one in Buckhead, where they carved out about 6 acres in a single family neighborhood and plopped in 50 homes, including new streets and a common area. Across the street they put 11 townhouses on 1 acre.

There are a zillion places like this, many of them much denser.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8561...!7i3328!8i1664

Duplexes were zoned out of many areas during the high crime years. Of course now that white people are moving back intown, now duplexes and ADUs are gaining popularity.
Almost any issue in American has to do with race.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by jsvh

It is not as much as what I am personally trying to build but what I see others trying. I go to regular neighborhood and NPU meetings. I see older homes demolished for giant McMansions that don't even need to get a single approval. Then I see the uphill battle many face just to make simple changes to their homes since the home is an original home and now too dense for zoning. I see good developers spend large sums of money and huge amounts of their time trying to get good, slightly denser developments approved and often end up with rejection.

My whole thing is we got to stop making people try so hard to build good dense development. That is why we are not getting enough.

Anytime a developer tries to build a more profitable denser development that many new homebuyers prefer, they face an uphill battle where one F-U-I-got-mine NIMBY can derail them even if the larger population wants it by claiming it is "just for profits and profits are bad!". So I am one of a growing number trying to fight that battle as a city-wide change so it is not about an individual developer but what is best for the city and the people in it as a whole.

A lot of that is a problem of the NPU system, not the zoning. It drives up the cost of doing anything in Atlanta. Simply one person can cost you many months and thousands of dollars. I've seen it happen where everyone in the neighborhood but one person was in favor of something, that wasn't actually a change. In that case, it took a year and $15,000 in consultants and lawyers.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

A lot of that is a problem of the NPU system, not the zoning. It drives up the cost of doing anything in Atlanta. Simply one person can cost you many months and thousands of dollars. I've seen it happen where everyone in the neighborhood but one person was in favor of something, that wasn't actually a change. In that case, it took a year and $15,000 in consultants and lawyers.

NPU's follow Robert's Rules, so unless that 1 person sues the developer, NPU will go with the majority of Yes.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by Gulch

Not even close. Manhattan is 23 square miles while a combined Midtown and Downtown is about 3.8 sq. miles.

I should have clarified that I was talking not just about the core midtown and downtown, but of the areas most people would refer to as being in downtown and midtown.

This is the entirety of Manhattan from the southern tip up to almost Washington Heights laid over a map of Atlanta.



But, I guess the real question is...is the density of NYC what anyone actually wants? I certainly hope not. I don't think I've seen too much of that around here. Mostly just denser housing.