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3. I used to live in New York and don't remember women or men ever being described as exotic. Even in Metro Atlanta, I never used to hear exotic used like that. I more hear this word used in my adulthood and the people who use it do tend to be from Atlanta or from the South.
Right, and that’s likely due to its internationalism and greater diversity than here, despite urban areas in both cities being segregated. Higher rates of marriage across cultures, etc. It seems more familiar and less distanced.
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It leaves me thinking...when did exotic become okay to use among black people (in particular men because don't remember hearing women use it)?
It never was. And no amount of African American History 101 is going to explain it. People who use it in the ways you’re describing are projecting their issues onto other people. It was never OK. And I keep and keep returning back to this because there is a lot of blacksplaining that seems to happen here when the issue isn’t just black and white racialized people. You can’t have the same textbook answer for black folk who live in more cosmopolitan areas and who have freed themselves from obsessing over whiteness.
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I don't see white people using it too often other than when they describe countries and sometimes you do get the feeling they are including the people in the country when they use the term. Still, it doesn't go to say they don't see people as exotic in their minds/call people exotic when they are around other white people.
Hmmmm. That’s interesting! I have more than enough white women who pursue black men use the tern “pretty” to bet on the looks of their biracial children as much as my black female friends who prefer interracial dating for the social benefits. Now. I don’t mean everyone who interracially dates has these mindsets at all. Many people are normal and have enough self esteem. But when you have major celebrities like Beyonce’s dad saying he dated her mom because he thought she was white and black men were told dirty things about black women, the conversation can only go so far.
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It's really sad to see this level of mental slavery in 2018. What you wrote regarding Boston and Western and Central Europeans is interesting. The first thing that came to mind when I read it was all these articles that come out every year listing the countries with the most beautiful women. At the top, you ALWAYS see countries like Norway, Sweden, etc., at the top because white women, blond hair. Yes, they are very fetishized not just in the U.S. but worldwide. Our media and its reaches, is a powerful force.
It’s not mental slavery if we allow the discussion to be more than a struggle about understanding black folk.
There are enough black folk with blue eyes in the carribbean or black folk with light brown eyes in Ghana or black folk with freckles in the Congo where these traits are not unusual. In my longterm experiences there, in these majority black places, they don’t use “exotic” to describe it at all. And the islands are an interesting example here, like the Naomi Campbells of Jamaica are normal but Naomi Campbell’s biraciality was not normal for her growing up in the UK. We have to think about place and exposure for everyone involved. Once I got over my own issues with blackness and skintone growing up dark skin, I could see colorism (which we’re folding exotic under) wasn’t just a psychology of resentful black people. Because we have so many tiers of skintone and I find it ironic to hear nonblack people discuss it as if it was just endemic to us. Rosa Parks worked not just because she was light but because white americans had a fantasy of the “tragic mulatto” for decades and did not feel threatened. That is colorism, too. And racism. Alice Walker did not coin the term to mean the same thing.
About beauty you’re reminding me.... I remember so many times when people talked about Mila Kunis being described as exotic by nerdy white dudes to the point that she took a DNA test using that word and then pretty much said nope, she’s regular degular jewish. Then people wanted to argue she wasn’t exotic, she’s “classic.” It really turns into a silly show of who’s world is the smallest. Because black folk with traits that Black AND White folk imagine they don’t have is homegrown.
When someone is commenting on a feature you have that makes you "better" or more "attractive" because it's a feature black people are not known to have, it isn't something you feel proud of. They are complimenting what's not black while at the same insulting your blackness by saying you are special or look more attractive because of this non-black feature.
Most men are not sexually objectified like black and Hispanic men and so not sure why you included them...at least not in Atlanta from what I m seeing. I don't look for reasons to be offended. I hate the thought of being someone's racist fetish. It's like an animal in a zoo and you are entertaining all these douchebags. People overall not including race are so basic and so when you describe these heterosexual men who don't give a **** about the things being discussed in the thread, I remember why.
When someone is commenting on a feature you have that makes you "better" or more "attractive" because it's a feature black people are not known to have, it isn't something you feel proud of. They are complimenting what's not black while at the same insulting your blackness by saying you are special or look more attractive because of this non-black feature.
But the word “exotic” has nothing to do with this. Someone suggested using the same word you would use to compliment anyone else. Ok so let’s use “beautiful” (which in my opinion is a very overused term). Someone could easily refer to a black woman as beautiful because of the “nonblack” features as you describe.
Maybe others explain it differently but for me, exotic doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a feature out of the norm. In my example of Dermot Mulroney there is no feature that is not consistent with Caucasian. It’s just the way all the features come together that makes (the younger) him look attractive in a way most guys aren’t to me and what I would call exotic.
Of course your feelings are your own, it just seems that there’s a lot of meaning being attached to things that may not be true. “Mental slavery?”
Societal ideas of beauty marginalize just about everyone. As a white woman I could never live up to the ideal of the blue-eyed blond. These days it seems most men drool over the gorgeous Latina or Eastern European, again an ideal I could never live up to. Luckily my husband appreciates my brunette white self!
Right, and that’s likely due to its internationalism and greater diversity than here, despite urban areas in both cities being segregated. Higher rates of marriage across cultures, etc. It seems more familiar and less distanced.
It never was. And no amount of African American History 101 is going to explain it. People who use it in the ways you’re describing are projecting their issues onto other people. It was never OK. And I keep and keep returning back to this because there is a lot of blacksplaining that seems to happen here when the issue isn’t just black and white racialized people. You can’t have the same textbook answer for black folk who live in more cosmopolitan areas and who have freed themselves from obsessing over whiteness.
Hmmmm. That’s interesting! I have more than enough white women who pursue black men use the tern “pretty” to bet on the looks of their biracial children as much as my black female friends who prefer interracial dating for the social benefits. Now. I don’t mean everyone who interracially dates has these mindsets at all. Many people are normal and have enough self esteem. But when you have major celebrities like Beyonce’s dad saying he dated her mom because he thought she was white and black men were told dirty things about black women, the conversation can only go so far.
It’s not mental slavery if we allow the discussion to be more than a struggle about understanding black folk.
There are enough black folk with blue eyes in the carribbean or black folk with light brown eyes in Ghana or black folk with freckles in the Congo where these traits are not unusual. In my longterm experiences there, in these majority black places, they don’t use “exotic” to describe it at all. And the islands are an interesting example here, like the Naomi Campbells of Jamaica are normal but Naomi Campbell’s biraciality was not normal for her growing up in the UK. We have to think about place and exposure for everyone involved. Once I got over my own issues with blackness and skintone growing up dark skin, I could see colorism (which we’re folding exotic under) wasn’t just a psychology of resentful black people. Because we have so many tiers of skintone and I find it ironic to hear nonblack people discuss it as if it was just endemic to us. Rosa Parks worked not just because she was light but because white americans had a fantasy of the “tragic mulatto” for decades and did not feel threatened. That is colorism, too. And racism. Alice Walker did not coin the term to mean the same thing.
About beauty you’re reminding me.... I remember so many times when people talked about Mila Kunis being described as exotic by nerdy white dudes to the point that she took a DNA test using that word and then pretty much said nope, she’s regular degular jewish. Then people wanted to argue she wasn’t exotic, she’s “classic.” It really turns into a silly show of who’s world is the smallest. Because black folk with traits that Black AND White folk imagine they don’t have is homegrown.
1) I'm not sure if I completely understand this but it sounds as if you're saying I'm generalizing black people with this exotic thing. I like the insight you bring from someone who lives/has lived in the Northeast, Boston to be specific. The thread I made is for Atlanta and so I have to keep my experiences confined to Atlanta. I acknowledged that colorism is NOT just a black thing but can be found in many Asian countries/Middle Eastern. I know that this is pretty complex but again, I have to be specific to Atlanta and even then, I don't say "all," I try to say some but can't keep using "some" and "Atlanta" too often because it gets repetitive.
I can't get off of Atlanta too much because I'm telling you...my comments WILL BE DELETED.
2) It's nice to learn that. I don't have too many female friends and even when I did, they were black and so it's good to read about your experiences. Just touching on what you said about Beyonce's dad...I remember this one time there was a female in school who I guess my fellow students thought I was going to go out with and one guy...will never forget told me not to go out with her because she was dark. He said look how black she is and it was so shocking to me to hear that from someone who is black. When I was in NY, I do remember a guy telling me, "You got that pretty hair. You've got that Puerto Rican hair." I really don't remember hearing all the racist things I hear down here but again, I have lived in Georgia plenty longer than NY.
3) About what I underlined, it's mental slavery when black people think that light-skinned is better and dark skin is ugly. It's mental slavery when black people think it's a white thing to be educated and be intelligent. It's mental slavery when instead of trying to bring each up, they tear each other down. This is what I mean by mental slavery and let me state again, this is from my experiences in Georgia and I've mostly lived in the Atlanta metro area in Georgia.
4) I absolutely agree with what you said about Rosa Parks and the issue of colorism being worldwide.
5) Seussie, I think I'm just going to do my thing and hurry up and move from Metro Atlanta. The people here are too basic. I'm putting myself out there but it's exhausting really. And when I say basic, I'm not even thinking about this thread but just the people in general how they are.
But the word “exotic” has nothing to do with this. Someone suggested using the same word you would use to compliment anyone else. Ok so let’s use “beautiful” (which in my opinion is a very overused term). Someone could easily refer to a black woman as beautiful because of the “nonblack” features as you describe.
Maybe others explain it differently but for me, exotic doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a feature out of the norm. In my example of Dermot Mulroney there is no feature that is not consistent with Caucasian. It’s just the way all the features come together that makes (the younger) him look attractive in a way most guys aren’t to me and what I would call exotic.
Of course your feelings are your own, it just seems that there’s a lot of meaning being attached to things that may not be true. “Mental slavery?”
Societal ideas of beauty marginalize just about everyone. As a white woman I could never live up to the ideal of the blue-eyed blond. These days it seems most men drool over the gorgeous Latina or Eastern European, again an ideal I could never live up to. Luckily my husband appreciates my brunette white self!
1) Exotic does have something to do with it because it has a strong racist history and it's being used today still towards people for racist reasons. If you're saying a black woman is beautiful for non-black features, it's not truly a compliment (I guess if she feels it is then yeah). You're basically saying her Asianness, whiteness, etc., is what makes her beautiful. She's beautiful but only because of these "non-black" features. I hope that makes sense what I just wrote.
2) Mental slavery I explained in the above post in response to Seussie. I can't tell you about your experiences with exotic but I know about my experiences and the meanings attached to it...what I am attaching to it is the truth. As for you, whether it's someone Arab chasing after white blonde-haired women blue eyes who thinks she is exotic (not using this to mean beautiful btw because white women/men in general all around the world are already seen as the standard of beauty), if you don't see it as bad, I have my beliefs and you yours. I really don't know what to say.
3) We actually talk about that a lot in school and you even see it in the media. It's like there's this desire to look Hispanic...like it's a trend or something. I dunno.
1) I'm not sure if I completely understand this but it sounds as if you're saying I'm generalizing black people with this exotic thing. I like the insight you bring from someone who lives/has lived in the Northeast, Boston to be specific. The thread I made is for Atlanta and so I have to keep my experiences confined to Atlanta. I acknowledged that colorism is NOT just a black thing but can be found in many Asian countries/Middle Eastern. I know that this is pretty complex but again, I have to be specific to Atlanta and even then, I don't say "all," I try to say some but can't keep using "some" and "Atlanta" too often because it gets repetitive.
I understand why you took it that way. That was a big point of mine in an earlier post but I took too much time ranting rather than just emphasizing that the black folk in atlanta who say it the way we’re describing likely haven’t travelled much or far for extended periods of time. That’s just my estimation. And yeah, I won’t lie, black folk seem to be a popular topic in the Atlanta board. I know my experience isn’t everyone’s but I suppose I just pound the feound of a more diverse Atlanta that includes Sunnis, Laotions, Vietnamese and think immediately how things relate beyond it! But as you’ve said you hear it most from your encounters with black folk.
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2) It's nice to learn that. I don't have too many female friends and even when I did, they were black and so it's good to read about your experiences. Just touching on what you said about Beyonce's dad...I remember this one time there was a female in school who I guess my fellow students thought I was going to go out with and one guy...will never forget told me not to go out with her because she was dark. He said look how black she is and it was so shocking to me to hear that from someone who is black. When I was in NY, I do remember a guy telling me, "You got that pretty hair. You've got that Puerto Rican hair." I really don't remember hearing all the racist things I hear down here but again, I have lived in Georgia plenty longer than NY.
I really try to steer clear of mentalities like that. I’ve become even more firm in my feelings about it because of my biracial niece and the weird self esteem issues my family projects on her which has made it hard for her to make friends with dark skin girls.
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3) About what I underlined, it's mental slavery when black people think that light-skinned is better and dark skin is ugly. It's mental slavery when black people think it's a white thing to be educated and be intelligent. It's mental slavery when instead of trying to bring each up, they tear each other down. This is what I mean by mental slavery and let me state again, this is from my experiences in Georgia and I've mostly lived in the Atlanta metro area in Georgia.
Me too. I had only been out of GA for school. I take your point. But I would also use it for people who think similarly who aren’t black. My Vietnamese friend was talking about how South Koreans and her have the same kind of encounters.
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5) Seussie, I think I'm just going to do my thing and hurry up and move from Metro Atlanta. The people here are too basic. I'm putting myself out there but it's exhausting really. And when I say basic, I'm not even thinking about this thread but just the people in general how they are.
It does take some time to find that good group of people. It does. But I found them and I’m ITC. Moving might not solve the problem immediately.
I understand why you took it that way. That was a big point of mine in an earlier post but I took too much time ranting rather than just emphasizing that the black folk in atlanta who say it the way we’re describing likely haven’t travelled much or far for extended periods of time. That’s just my estimation. And yeah, I won’t lie, black folk seem to be a popular topic in the Atlanta board. I know my experience isn’t everyone’s but I suppose I just pound the feound of a more diverse Atlanta that includes Sunnis, Laotions, Vietnamese and think immediately how things relate beyond it! But as you’ve said you hear it most from your encounters with black folk.
I really try to steer clear of mentalities like that. I’ve become even more firm in my feelings about it because of my biracial niece and the weird self esteem issues my family projects on her which has made it hard for her to make friends with dark skin girls.
Me too. I had only been out of GA for school. I take your point. But I would also use it for people who think similarly who aren’t black. My Vietnamese friend was talking about how South Koreans and her have the same kind of encounters.
It does take some time to find that good group of people. It does. But I found them and I’m ITC. Moving might not solve the problem immediately.
1) Yeah, that's true. And I guess in NYC, even if you don't travel much or far, you are at least interacting with people from different countries/different walks of life and so are exposed to more. Yeah, I do get tired of the scrutiny black people are always under. It wasn't my intention of adding to this. If I had more Arab, Asian, etc. friends, then I'd be able to add more to the conversation but it's just the people I hang around. If I were to talk about other countries, which I would love to do, my comments will be deleted.
I have always been curious about the relationships for instance between Koreans and Vietnamese. What's very interesting is that I've seen people who are Vietnamese/Vietnamese descent who more speak to people who might be black or Latino for example (not mostly talk to but are open to socializing with). I can't say the same for Koreans nor can I say I've seen many Koreans and Vietnamese talking to one another; I do wonder what role colorism, economics plays into it and I mean the Metro Atlanta area.
2) I mean it's 2018. I just wish such things weren't projected on children.
3) I think I touched that subject in a previous paragraph. Koreans here from what I see, stick to themselves as do the Indians. The only people they tend to socialize with outside of their circle are white people. It was the weirdest thing...I was at school the other day and I kept looking at this guy. He looks like he could be mixed with black and Asian. I saw him hanging with people who were Asian but he wasn't sitting next to them. He was sitting across from them all by his lonesome and I thought, if it were me, I'd make space for my friend to join us or someone might have to sit on someone's lap lol j/k. I'd probably even prefer to stand to have my friend closer to the group. It made me wonder how much of a friend these friends were to him. I felt really sorry for him. Anyway, I'm diverging.
4) I can't move immediately anyway. I've got things to do before that's even an option.
To the people who are offended that people are offended, at some point, you have to accept that the only people's emotions you can control are your own. If other people are offended by a term, that is their business and they are not going to stop being offended just because you don't want them to feel that way. If you care about not offending people are about how people view you, then don't use certain terms that others have told you are offensive. If you don't care about this, then continue using whatever language you want. But you do *not* have the right to do is dictate how another person feels.
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Originally Posted by seussie
Colorism is not only an issue in black communities.
Yes such a good point. I usually restrict my comments on colorism to the Af-Am community only because I am not familiar enough with how it manifests in other communities. I'm not sure if it affects other groups in the same way or if it springs from the same source.
To the people who are offended that people are offended, at some point, you have to accept that the only people's emotions you can control are your own. If other people are offended by a term, that is their business and they are not going to stop being offended just because you don't want them to feel that way. If you care about not offending people are about how people view you, then don't use certain terms that others have told you are offensive. If you don't care about this, then continue using whatever language you want. But you do *not* have the right to do is dictate how another person feels.
Yes such a good point. I usually restrict my comments on colorism to the Af-Am community only because I am not familiar enough with how it manifests in other communities. I'm not sure if it affects other groups in the same way or if it springs from the same source.
Very good points. That last one is paramount and is a lesson that many still have yet to learn.
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