Austin - 10 years behind on roads? (vs, shop, buses)

[jread]

Austin is more like 30-years behind on transportation in general.....

[twange]

Originally Posted by texastea

Maybe Leander's hiring...

I knew it was a big deal, but I didn't know HOW big:

KLRU: Austin Now > Politics & Government
(watch the video)

All the stuff they are saying is great: Mixed use development, how rail/streetcars helped develop the neighborhoods that are most desirable, urban density, etc...But since ridership will probably be limited on this line initially, I worry that the perception of it's failure will stall future lines from happening and we'll be stuck with this one lame train that only serves neighborhoods between Leander and Austin while Leander grows into a massive suburb.

I've looked on their website at "potential future extensions" and since those will require referendums, there's no guarantee they will happen. The problem with using existing heavy rail(track already in place formerly used by freight) is that they were built for transporting goods from A to B - not for serving neighborhoods. A lot of the existing rails go through areas that:

a.)don't have anything around them, requiring lots of retro-fitting for platforms, park and rides etc...
b.)Go through inaccessible areas like greenbelts, or other wooded areas between different zones like commercial and residential.

If you've ever walked railroad tracks, you know how they tend to go behind buildings, to accommodate warehouses etc...

So instead of designing a system that serves the existing neighborhoods, they are basically taking the easy way and just building a new town out of a pasture and hoping it will develop into another "big city in Central Texas". The reason all of those cool streetcar towns developed the way they did was that the cars traveled right down the main street past houses, shops etc...that's what light rail/streetcars do. Commuter trains are more about the destination not the journey. I think Austin needs both. I just hope they follow through properly.

Again, I like the ideas, I just wish they would just work inside/out first.

BTW, I thought it was ironic that the woman interviewed in the documentary commented that "pedestrian design is the way of the future"...um, actually all cities until the early 20th century were pedestrian friendly.

We are "built for walking" after all

Just for fun, here's a couple of photos of the streetcars that my hometown tore out in the mid 50s Notice how they go right through the town.

[texastea]

You're right, Twange. Its too bad Austinites kept voting against light rail...they didn't want it because it didn't go to "their" front door, or cost too much per rider or whatever. (My memory's fading )

This was plan B (or C or D) and when people outside the city limits of Austin got to vote, we approved it. Its got to start somewhere, right?

[jclAustin]

This thread reminded me of a documentary that I watched some time ago, I think on PBS, that described how GM setup a company to purchase electric trolley lines and dismantel them, converting them over to buses. Thought people might find it interesting and somewhat germane to the thread:

Paving the Way for Buses The Great GM Streetcar Conspiracy

Is anyone familiar with this and know the true historical authenticity? After a little googling the only sources I could find seem to be somewhat biased towards environmental causes.

[twange]

Originally Posted by jclAustin

This thread reminded me of a documentary that I watched some time ago, I think on PBS, that described how GM setup a company to purchase electric trolley lines and dismantel them, converting them over to buses. Thought people might find it interesting and somewhat germane to the thread:

Paving the Way for Buses The Great GM Streetcar Conspiracy

Is anyone familiar with this and know the true historical authenticity? After a little googling the only sources I could find seem to be somewhat biased towards environmental causes.

Funny you mentioned this. About a year ago, History Detectives(PBS) did a story on this pertaining specifically to Cleveland's streetcars(where I'm from) and determined that while GM actually did do this in some cities, many other towns(including Cleveland and it's suburbs) simply chose to follow suit without actually being manipulated by GM. Some of it had to do with Goodyear Tire Company which is based in Akron, Ohio(about 50 miles south...Home of LeBron James) But I think the general consensus was that GM started and somewhat reinforced the trend in the 1950s. There's was a bunch of legal mish-mash that I can't remember right now...

Funny thing is, after Cleveland tore out their streetcars, they sold many of them to Toronto, Chicago and other cities. In Toronto's case, they were still using some of those cars as late as the 1980s before replacing them with more modern ones. Check out the fortunes of Toronto vs Cleveland in terms of Public Transit

A real gaffe (one of them, anyway)that the city is still reeling from IMHO.

[southwest1230]

Originally Posted by twange

All the stuff they are saying is great: Mixed use development, how rail/streetcars helped develop the neighborhoods that are most desirable, urban density, etc...But since ridership will probably be limited on this line initially, I worry that the perception of it's failure will stall future lines from happening and we'll be stuck with this one lame train that only serves neighborhoods between Leander and Austin while Leander grows into a massive suburb.

I've looked on their website at "potential future extensions" and since those will require referendums, there's no guarantee they will happen. The problem with using existing heavy rail(track already in place formerly used by freight) is that they were built for transporting goods from A to B - not for serving neighborhoods. A lot of the existing rails go through areas that:

a.)don't have anything around them, requiring lots of retro-fitting for platforms, park and rides etc...
b.)Go through inaccessible areas like greenbelts, or other wooded areas between different zones like commercial and residential.

If you've ever walked railroad tracks, you know how they tend to go behind buildings, to accommodate warehouses etc...

So instead of designing a system that serves the existing neighborhoods, they are basically taking the easy way and just building a new town out of a pasture and hoping it will develop into another "big city in Central Texas". The reason all of those cool streetcar towns developed the way they did was that the cars traveled right down the main street past houses, shops etc...that's what light rail/streetcars do. Commuter trains are more about the destination not the journey. I think Austin needs both. I just hope they follow through properly.

Again, I like the ideas, I just wish they would just work inside/out first.

BTW, I thought it was ironic that the woman interviewed in the documentary commented that "pedestrian design is the way of the future"...um, actually all cities until the early 20th century were pedestrian friendly.

We are "built for walking" after all

Just for fun, here's a couple of photos of the streetcars that my hometown tore out in the mid 50s Notice how they go right through the town.

http://www.haywoods-permanent-way.org.uk/gossip/images/2006/09/image011.jpg (broken link)
Nice shots of 50's Cleveland.
Well said.....I say at least they are doing something....The best thing is just to get people in the mental mode of taking trains and buses. Austin people are the type that would use it. They are eco-friendly and its convenience can't be beat. And its fun taking them too. I took the train for years in Chicago, and always enjoyed it. There will always be congestion, but if the public has alternatives to choose from, it can be greatly alleviated. I think people will ride the trains to Austin, especially if gas prices continue to rise. Leander is exploding with huge new tract housing developments, thousands of people are moving there. Most of the residents in the Cedar Park/Leander area are working class folks, attracted by affordable housing and good schools. Many work for the state and the big Austin hospitals, and therefore have train-friendly predictible schedules. Most are concerned about gas prices. I also think voters were very wise to reject the trolley car plan which would tied up traffic in Austin for years and years and years, cost the earth, and would not have served the places where productive people (as opposed to students) actually live. It will be all good in the end, though.

[iguanas4]

Originally Posted by achtungpv

Frontage roads are pretty unique to TX since TX law required all land owners to be given access to state highways that fronted their property. To keep from having driveways on major highways, the frontage road system was developed.

That is interesting!!

It seems to me that the reality of the frontage roads is the same difference as having driveways on major highways. When you come out of a business on a frontage road, you're at a dead stop, trying to zoom out into the 60 MPH+ traffic on the frontage road. My car is reasonably fast and I'm not a timid driver, but it still makes me nervous when traffic is heavy.

[atxcio]

Or forgotten relics from nearly a century ago?

Interesting fact... long before Cap Metro, Austin had it's own streetcar system. Probably connected the urban core really well, back in the 1920s. The streetcars were replaced by buses in the 1940s... wonder if it had anything to do GM?

[jclAustin]

KLRU's Downtown had a segment on the light rail. I think it was a capmetro employee who said that they went with the existing rail lines because it was a fraction of the cost of having to create a new rail corridor. Then buses/trolleys were to take riders the rest of the way to where they were going. There's always a trade off I guess.

San Jose put in a light rail system, but they improved the highway system at the same time, so many opted to keep driving. I had a friend who took it occasionally, but said it was too slow, around twice the time it would take to drive in bad rush hour traffic. I carpooled and for a time the carpool met near one of the stations and the cars were nearly empty.

[achtungpv]

Originally Posted by iguanas4

That is interesting!!

Yeah, TxDOT is not building frontage roads anymore since they've realized they do not help and make traffic worse.

I was at a transportation planning conference once and a speaker joked that all the other 49 DOTs look to TxDOT for examples of how not to design highways. It got the biggest laugh of the week.