An American student needs to chose between Australia and Canada (job market, universities)

[Haddock]

Hi folks! I'm young guy who has finally decided to go to college in either Australia or Canada with the intent of building a career there and becoming a productive, positive, and fully integrated citizen someday. I hope this post doesn't generate too many "F$%$ Off, We're full!" responses, but if it does, that's okay, too.

The biggest question I have in mind is what the future holds economically for both Canada and Australia. I have a few friends who came over to the US during the Yeltsin years and just hearing some of their stories of an empire in decline makes me want to get the heck out of the US before things get too bad over here.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis on the two countries pros and cons:

Pros for both:
High HDI (Human Dev. Index)
Low GINI (Income inequality measure)
High Index of Economic Freedom ranking ( Australia #3, Canada #7)
Resource based economies with point systems for immigrant entry. (Unlike the USA)
Less corrupt than the US (or so it appears)
Better infrastructure than the US (Australia might have an edge here, I don't know.)
A better health care system
A more civil society (less crime, less people per capita in prisons.)

Australia Pros:

Climate
Mineral Resources
High Minimum Wage
Superannuation
Better social and cultural unity (Social Capital)
Low Gov't Debt
Generally more "can-do" culture (vis-a-vis Canada)
"Mateship"
Fun looking new sports to learn and new teams to support.
Physically closer to Asia/India. (Great for trips to other fun places!)
Three year undergrad.


Australia Cons:
Very high consumer debt(Housing bubble)
Internet filter
Cost of housing
Long term risk of "Finlandization" by China.
No North American Sports
Water shortage problems in the future?
Volatile Currency
Cost of living somewhat higher than Canada it seems.
Slow Internet
Climate could be adversely effected by global climate change

Canada Pros:
Huge Oil(Tar Sands) resources
Closer to Family
Lower cost of transport/running a car.
Lower housing cost
Low Housing Debt burden (no bubble)
Plenty of H2O
Faster Internet
Climate would be helped by global temperature rise

Canada Cons:
Not far enough away from America/Risk of being pulled down by US decline
Higher national (Gov't owed) debt
Less social cohesion (I think)
Crappy weather, cold.
Many cities in the north have a de-industrialized feel
Too PC

So that's my list of pros and cons for each place. I'd really welcome any input on the list and your opinions on which country you think will fare better in the next fifty years?

[ErikMartinsen]

I really love analyzing the political and economic conditions of countries, and commend you doing some thorough research (though I certainly don't agree that a high minimum wage is favorable —unions protect their own high-pay status by increasing the cost of lower-skilled workers, effectively pricing poor people out of the job market —but I digress).

I'm Norwegian, and recently moved to Australia, in part because of the increased personal and economic liberty here. So far I absolutely love this country, and particularly the climate (the Australian winter is like the Norwegian spring/early summer). Here's a few observations I've made:

1) People, universities and corporations are enormously more focused on environmentalism here.

2) I've seen many signs about how water must be conserved due to Australia being in a drought.

3) The Internet is indeed slower and more expensive, at least compared to in Norway. In Norway I had very high speed broadband with an unlimited download capacity; here, for the same price, I have a significantly lower bandwidth, which is capped for a month after downloading 5GB.

4) I agree with your assessment that the U.S. government seems enormously more corrupt than either Australia or Canada. Americans are screwed no matter which side is in power. That being said, I'm finding it very hard to like either of the two major parties here in Australia too, and I'm really not a big fan of two-party-systems in general. Canadian parties seem more likeable to me, though admittedly I don't know very much about them.

5) Last but not least I'd like to point out that Australia is immensely multicultural; likely far moreso than Canada. This especially applies to the universities; expect a vast majority of Chinese, Indian and Indonesian students.

Despite the economic decline of the U.S. I'll probably end up moving there eventually; I'm such a junkie when it comes to American politics and history, Americans in general are more individualistic and libertarian than anyone else, and I guess I still have a romanticised idea of the American Dream.

[BigCur]

Originally Posted by Haddock

Hi folks! I'm young guy who has finally decided to go to college in either Australia or Canada with the intent of building a career there and becoming a productive, positive, and fully integrated citizen someday. I hope this post doesn't generate too many "F$%$ Off, We're full!" responses, but if it does, that's okay, too.

The biggest question I have in mind is what the future holds economically for both Canada and Australia. I have a few friends who came over to the US during the Yeltsin years and just hearing some of their stories of an empire in decline makes me want to get the heck out of the US before things get too bad over here.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis on the two countries pros and cons:

Pros for both:
High HDI (Human Dev. Index)
Low GINI (Income inequality measure)
High Index of Economic Freedom ranking ( Australia #3, Canada #7)
Resource based economies with point systems for immigrant entry. (Unlike the USA)
Less corrupt than the US (or so it appears)
Better infrastructure than the US (Australia might have an edge here, I don't know.)
A better health care system
A more civil society (less crime, less people per capita in prisons.)

Australia Pros:

Climate
Mineral Resources
High Minimum Wage
Superannuation
Better social and cultural unity (Social Capital)
Low Gov't Debt
Generally more "can-do" culture (vis-a-vis Canada)
"Mateship"
Fun looking new sports to learn and new teams to support.
Physically closer to Asia/India. (Great for trips to other fun places!)
Three year undergrad.


Australia Cons:
Very high consumer debt(Housing bubble)
Internet filter
Cost of housing
Long term risk of "Finlandization" by China.
No North American Sports
Water shortage problems in the future?
Volatile Currency
Cost of living somewhat higher than Canada it seems.
Slow Internet
Climate could be adversely effected by global climate change

Canada Pros:
Huge Oil(Tar Sands) resources
Closer to Family
Lower cost of transport/running a car.
Lower housing cost
Low Housing Debt burden (no bubble)
Plenty of H2O
Faster Internet
Climate would be helped by global temperature rise

Canada Cons:
Not far enough away from America/Risk of being pulled down by US decline
Higher national (Gov't owed) debt
Less social cohesion (I think)
Crappy weather, cold.
Many cities in the north have a de-industrialized feel
Too PC

So that's my list of pros and cons for each place. I'd really welcome any input on the list and your opinions on which country you think will fare better in the next fifty years?

One factor decides, Australia may well become depopulated because of SEVERE and ongoing water scarcity, Canada has plenty.
IMHO,Canada is more cultured, but from your post that doesn't seem to a concern for you.

[NatashaH]

Originally Posted by ErikMartinsen

5) Last but not least I'd like to point out that Australia is immensely multicultural; likely far moreso than Canada. This especially applies to the universities; expect a vast majority of Chinese, Indian and Indonesian students.

Sorry Canada is more multicultural than Australia. Canada's minority population is almost 20% compared to Australia's 10%.

[ErikMartinsen]

Originally Posted by NatashaH

Sorry Canada is more multicultural than Australia. Canada's minority population is almost 20% compared to Australia's 10%.

Alright thanks for the correction, though the percentage is certainly much higher in the urban areas of Australia, such as Melbourne and Sydney, where he's likely to be living.

[Spindle]

Originally Posted by ErikMartinsen

I'm Norwegian, and recently moved to Australia, in part because of the increased personal and economic liberty here. So far I absolutely love this country, and particularly the climate (the Australian winter is like the Norwegian spring/early summer). Here's a few observations I've made:

1) People, universities and corporations are enormously more focused on environmentalism here.

2) I've seen many signs about how water must be conserved due to Australia being in a drought.

3) The Internet is indeed slower and more expensive, at least compared to in Norway. In Norway I had very high speed broadband with an unlimited download capacity; here, for the same price, I have a significantly lower bandwidth, which is capped for a month after downloading 5GB.

4) I agree with your assessment that the U.S. government seems enormously more corrupt than either Australia or Canada. Americans are screwed no matter which side is in power. That being said, I'm finding it very hard to like either of the two major parties here in Australia too, and I'm really not a big fan of two-party-systems in general. Canadian parties seem more likeable to me, though admittedly I don't know very much about them.

5) Last but not least I'd like to point out that Australia is immensely multicultural; likely far moreso than Canada. This especially applies to the universities; expect a vast majority of Chinese, Indian and Indonesian students.

Despite the economic decline of the U.S. I'll probably end up moving there eventually; I'm such a junkie when it comes to American politics and history, Americans in general are more individualistic and libertarian than anyone else, and I guess I still have a romanticised idea of the American Dream.

Glad you're enjoying it here in Aus.

Just to point 4, i don't think the US is much worse than Aus or Canada. I think it's just a reflection of the contrasting political systems at work, ie parliament for Au + Can and presidential for US.

[BigCur]

Originally Posted by Spindle

Glad you're enjoying it here in Aus.

Just to point 4, i don't think the US is much worse than Aus or Canada. I think it's just a reflection of the contrasting political systems at work, ie parliament for Au + Can and presidential for US.

The contrast is between democracy and empire.

[Kangaroofarmer]

Originally Posted by BigCur

The contrast is between democracy and empire.

What Empire? Australia and Canada are no more under England's thumb, than what America is.

[BigCur]

Originally Posted by Kangaroofarmer

What Empire? Australia and Canada are no more under England's thumb, than what America is.

I know, Oz and Canada are democracies, which is what I said.

[Kangaroofarmer]

Originally Posted by BigCur

I know, Oz and Canada are democracies, which is what I said.

My mistake then. It's just that I've heard some very uniformed comments about the Commonwealth Paraliamentary system of government, and re-reading your post, I see that 'Empire' was more of a reference to the US.